The Truth About the Biggest Act of Domestic Terrorism in American History

Ever noticed, whenever there's a history-changing act of violence, it was a lone wolf.

“It was a lone wolf, it was a random crazy guy.”

We have no idea why he did it. That would be the guy who killed JFK and RFK and MLK and the Butler shooting. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. Almost all shootings in real life are between people who know each other. We're trying to steal something from one another.

But all the political killings are just some random crazy person. That's weird, isn't it? What are the chances? But when you question the official story that people in charge don't even respond. They react like people have got something to hide.

They just attack you. That's what liars do.

Journalists doing their job, which is seeking real answers,

are a massive threat to their power. So noticing is the crime. And that's certainly the case with the subject of our new series, the O.K.C bomb files. This is the story of what actually happened, the extent we know, at the 1995 bombing in Oklahoma City, the killed 168 people.

Now, you'll recall that the feds told us the bomber was a guy called Tim McVay, and he was a veteran white supremacist lone wolf. But over the past 31 years, a lot of evidence has accumulated to suggest, well, really, to show that's a full blown lie. There were many more people involved in that crime.

We're talking to a person today who lost her two young grandsons in that bombing, and she has spent the last 30 years investigating the attack herself. She's smart, she's methodical, she's not crazy, and she is a lot to say. She's here today to tell us why she believes that the FBI story about Tim McVay acting alone is a lie, and who else may have been involved,

and how the government knows more than it has admitted. Here's Kathy Sanders. Kathy, thank you so much for doing this. Well, it's my pleasure. Thank you.

“I think most Americans under, let's say 40,”

have only a dim understanding if any knowledge at all about what happened in Oklahoma City. Can you tell the outline of the story for us? I'll be happy to have people don't know about Oklahoma City, because it's not even in the history books, not even in Oklahoma. What happened to me was on April 19, 1995, I woke up one morning,

and I went to the bedroom next to mine, because my grandchildren lived in my home. My daughter was a young divorced mother in Chase and Colton lived in our home, and everything in our life evolved around these little boys, and I went into wake them up, and they weren't in there. And I thought, "How strange."

So I walked down the hall to the end of the hallway, and sometime during the night Tucker, those two little boys, two and three years old, had totaled down the hall and gotten in bed with their mother, where they spent their last night of their lives. I turned on the light, in the bedroom, like I did every morning.

In our house, we always started with the song.

It's like, "Good morning to you, good morning to you." We're all in our places with sunshiney faces. What a nice way to start a new Wednesday, and the little boys begin to get going. We get them ready for school, for daycare. In our home, it was a group effort.

80's working on the boys. I'm working on the boys, brushing their teeth, and we get them all dressed, and take them into the kitchen, where we feed them breakfast. And 80, and I load them in the car, because she and I not only live together, we work together downtown, and we took the boys and dropped them off at the daycare.

“I remember the little crumbs on Colton's face when we left them.”

We went on to our office to go to work. 80 had been sick on Monday and Tuesday before the bombing on Wednesday, and she had kept the boys at home with her. She was going to stay home on Wednesday as well. But on Tuesday night, she got a call from a co-worker to say,

"80, you've got to come to work tomorrow because we're having the office birthday parties for the people whose birthdays were in April and it was 80 in another girls." And so 80 agreed she would come in, but she might go home afterwards if she still felt bad. So she went into the office. I'm two floors above her, and she's walking across the floor to blow out the candles on her birthday cake.

When the bomb goes off, it's this huge explosion. Unlike anything I'd ever heard before, I knew something had happened and it was a bad.

out the windows. They're trying to figure out what happened.

“Someone is on the phone and they hang up the phone and they said, "They just blew up the bank."”

And I said, "80, let's go see." So we run down three flights of stairs and out the front door of our office, which was three blocks from the mirror and there went a car one moving in the street. It was like we'd entered the twilight zone. We looked up the street, the banks intact.

There's big sheets of plate glass falling down around us. I had no idea what had happened and 80 turned to go back into building what was safe and I'm walking behind her and then I looked up the street.

“And I see the smoke rising from the mirror building and I said, "80, the babies."”

So we take off running and we get to the south side of the street and she had tennis shoes a lot because she was playing an ongoing home and the parking lot was a long way from our building. I couldn't keep up with her. I said, "80, wait, wait, wait up." We stopped at the south side of the building and we're surveying the damage. And the windows were all blown out of the windows and there were blinds just dangling in the air

like rupture blood vessels. It was just a mess. I'd never seen anything like it.

And then we hear boom, boom, boom. And we see this black-billowing smoke. And I didn't know what that was. But we turned and we ran to the north side of the building. And when we did it was the cars and the parking lot blowing up. And I turned back to look behind me and we saw the daycare that the mirror building was nothing left but just a pancake pile of rubble.

And my daughter falls to her knees and she begins to cry, "My babies, my babies." And Tucker, that was the first time in my daughter's life. She had a problem that her mother wasn't going to be able to fix. We're running through the rubble trying to find the babies.

And a second bomb threat came and people were running all away from the building.

They were stampeding trying to get away. Another bomb another bomb. Well, we're trying to get in and a law enforcement official grabbed us and said, "You can't go in." He physically made us leave the area. We were told to go to the children's hospital that that's where they were going to take the children when they were removed from the building.

So, at the hospital, I lost all track of time. But my son was an off duty police officer and he had seen his mother and sister on TV and he came down downtown and he said, "Mom, don't worry. I'm going to find the boys." And he laughed and he came back and I knew when he walked through the door. Something was wrong and I jumped up and I said, "Danny, Danny, what is it? What is it, son?"

His mom had a little green shorts and a white shirt and I said, "Yes, son."

“"Yeah, that's a colon." And I see the tears on his face and I said, "Son is the baby God?”

Is the baby gone?" And he puts his big arms around me and goes, "Yeah, my mom's sorry, colon's gone." And he helped me for a few minutes and then he said, "Many cheer and he goes, I'm a wheres 80." Well, by this time I couldn't stand watching her grave, the loss of the children. I was grieving, the loss of the children. I was grieving for her. It was just horrible. And I said, "Son, she's around the corner in the chaplain's office." And in a few minutes, I heard a blood

curdling scream and I knew my son hit down my daughter and later that day he found my oldest son, grandson, he'd also been totagged. Nothing like this had ever happened in my life. I mean, this was so foreign to me. I remember Tucker telling a interviewer when asked about this, just in the weeks after the bombing. I told him, "You know, it won't be very long when I tell someone

We've had so many bombing, so many school shootings, the whole world has changed. And I wouldn't believe this story about the bombing if it hadn't happened to me. I would have been one of those people.

I live in La La Land. I like to be happy. I would have never believed anything

like this could have happened. A few weeks after the bombing, we had a dinner at our home. I reached out to the 19 families that lost their kids. We're sitting in the din. We're talking about our children. People were saying, "Well, my little girl lost her arm." And I remember one mother saying,

“"The only thing I ever seen about my baby again was his toes. I got to touch kisses little toes."”

And another grandmother, her baby was, grandson, was beheaded. And then one mother speaks up. And she said, "Well, when I dropped my son off there, I saw the bomb squad downtown. We didn't believe her. The next day." When she dropped her son off that morning, of course, before the bombing, she saw a bomb squad. She saw the bomb squad downtown. They're at the Murrow Building when she was taking her son in before the bombing. Before the bomb went off. So electrolytes, that's a term

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and use the code Tucker for 15% off your first order. Redmond.com/tucker. Code Tucker, 15% off, or click the link in the video description or scan the QR code on the screen. Anyway, you do it, enjoy it. So just to be clear for people who aren't familiar with the official version of the story, the government announced very quickly that, of course, they do nothing about this. And it was an active terror committed by two white supremacists, veterans, Timothy McVay and Terry

Nichols, and that was it. Two crazy people did this crime. That was the version. That was the story that was given to us. Yes. And, you know, that's the one I thought I should believe. Of course, everyone did. But it's like, were they down there? And it made my husband so mad. The next day, he went down to the fire station. The chief said, no, we didn't have our bombs quad down down there. We didn't. There wasn't any prior knowledge. Because some other people had said they'd seen the

bombs quad truck with the bomb disposal unit on the back. And so we left not knowing what to think. And then the next day was sent on article in a paper where a woman gave an interview and said the people in her office had been watching the bomb squad truck in the alleyway. And there were reports of bomb sniffing dogs through the bushes in the alleyway.

I never directly talked to that person. But as my husband was leaving the fire station,

the fire dispatcher there said, I'm not going to lie for anyone. He goes, we got a memorandum in this office last week to be on high alert for terrorist activity. And after that, we found out that the federal courthouse had also gotten that same high alert. No one had ever mentioned that to us. We didn't know it was the bad day to go to the memorandum building and drop your kids off. But the dispatcher at the fire station told your

husband that, I'm not going to cover this up. I'm not going to lie.

“Yeah, that's what he said. He said, you know, we got an alert to be on alert for terrorist activity”

in downtown Oklahoma City. And the federal courthouse also got that same alert.

in the documentary series. But I mean, if they had an alert that this was coming,

“that raises the question, how would they know if it was just two random white supremacists who”

did this and there was not a larger conspiracy than how the government had had warning of this.

So, well, I know how they had their warning as I begin to investigate. This was just a first

baby step. This story is so big and it goes so far and stop me if I'm telling too much. But I know how they found out. I learned about an ATF informant who was living at Elohim City. I have her documents, of her reports she turned into her handler. She warned her handler that beginning in December of 1994, the informant, along with two other individuals, had taken trips to Oklahoma City and Tulsa to target buildings they planned to blow up. They took three trips.

The handler was brand new to the job and her reports almost were just written just exactly as the informant turned them in. So, someone somewhere had some information there. And Elohim City is a big part of it, Tucker, because not only was that informant warning the ATF, I have a possible bombing, Timothy McVay called there two minutes after calling the

“writer-truck rental company. I believe it was two weeks before the bombing. Now, he asked to speak to”

a fella by the name of Andreas Strasmeyer. If I was an FBI agent, I would be interested in knowing

what's going on at Elohim City and who's this Strasmeyer is, the FBI never talked to Strasmeyer.

They never interviewed him, but they interviewed McVay, I don't know, she was like his fourth grade school teacher. They interviewed tens of thousands of people in connection with McVay, but they didn't think it was important to talk to Strasmeyer. Also, who was Strasmeyer? He was living at Elohim City and he was taking these trips to Oklahoma and to Tulsa, planning a bombing. He was planning, they were planning on bombing something. And the FBI never interviewed him. Now, he was a German

nationalist. He was a German nationals. They, a year after the bombing, after he was allowed to leave and return to Germany, they called and did a telephone interview. So, I mean, I don't know this, of course, I can't, but the only logically the other reason I can think of that they would interview him would be that they, he was working for them. Well, that would seem logical to me. I don't, maybe it was a case of the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.

I know that the ITF informant Carol Howell was indeed an informant and I know what Strasmeyer at Elohim City, according to the people there that I visited with, was trying to insight them to do bad things. Why? And why did he leave the country? And why wasn't he ever interviewed? I mean, McVay calls him two minutes after calling the writer truck company, there has to be some kind of connection, but he just disappeared. Is he still alive? Yes.

Has he ever been interviewed by the FBI that you know of in person?

“Not, not to my knowledge. No. And there's more about Elohim City if you want to hear it.”

Well, let's go back to your story. So, um, and I do want to hear it. But first I want to

understand how it dawned on you in the middle of your grief, having just lost your two grandsons that there was more going on here. So, you learn that a bomb disposal squad has been seen at the site of the bombing before the bombing. Your husband asks the fire chief, he denies it, but the dispatcher basically confirms it. That's right. What happens next? Well, next we've got the largest Manhattan American history going on for John Doe number two.

was looking for him. They first they were looking for John Doe one and John Doe two. They found

“John Doe one from the Vin number off of the vehicle. So, they traced him back to Junctions.”

The writer's truck that exploded that had the bomb in it, the ammonium nitrate fuel oil bomb, exploded, of course, but the axle from the truck had the Vin number had the Vin number on it. And then the registration and the information they got from the writer's truck company, they located Timothy McVay. But according to the people where they rented the truck, there were two men. And so, there was a John Doe two. And so, there was this largest Manhattan

American history for John Doe two, $2 million reward in just a couple of weeks. The FBI said,

"You know what? It was all a mistake. There is no John Doe no number two." And that held an at the body shop was mistaken. Well, you know, I maybe I could have dropped it at that, but we started investigating early on when I thought something was wrong. And I finally went down to, I talked to Stephen Jones, McVay's defense attorney,

“and I said, "Look, if you want to point the finger at the other people that were involved,”

I'll help you." And so, I worked with his investigators, McVay's investigators. So, I was privy to documents. That's how I found out about Carol Hall, the informant. The ETF informant. That's why I had access to her documents. That's how I knew that there were way over 20 people that had seen Timothy McVay downtown that morning in the presence of this John Doe two. I had their 302 witness statements. I wouldn't talk to them. There was Rodney Johnson,

the catering guy delivering delivery guy. He sees McVay with a guy walking across the street. There's Jeff Davis, the delivery boy that delivered Chinese food to McVay's room in Junction City. It wasn't McVay that he gave the food to, and there was another man in the room.

There were Dana Bradley. She was on the first floor of the Murrow Building

when her mother, her sister and her two children. When the bomb went off, it killed her mother

“and her two children. She fell down to the basement. You'll remember she was pinned in the”

rubble and they had to cut her leg off to get her out of the rubble. She tells the FBI and I'll watch her testify at the courtroom that she and her sister were people watching. They were just standing there in front of the windows of the social security, waiting for their number to be called. And they were just watching people go by and they're kind of making fun of someone. I don't remember what it was, but they were just people watching and killing

time. And they see the truck drive up. They see McVay get out and they see someone get out of the passenger side and take off running. And if the trial, the FBI said, well, she doesn't know what she's talking about because she's been traumatized. Imagine crawling into bed and you feel like you're floating and then wake up rested with no soreness from a stiff mattress. Well, you could do that. Oh, you got to do a switch to Brooklyn bedding. We can imagine what you're thinking. A mattress

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site-wide. And if you see a survey after checkout, let them know who sent you which is us. There's just dozens of people that saw McVay downtown with other people. In what's really mystifying, if you were prosecuting Timothy McVay, wouldn't you call a witness that could place them at the crime scene? You would. The prosecution didn't because every witness they had that saw McVay downtown that morning at the crime scene, saw him with another guy. Mike Morose at Johnny's Tires. McVay drives

up there. Mike comes out to his car to greet him and McVay jumps out of the truck like he's keeping Mike away from the truck. And he's asking for directions to the corner of Fifth and Harvey. And then he jumps back in his truck and he sits there a few more minutes. Mike watches him as he and the other guy drive off. Danny Wilkinson, it worked at the Regency Tower just one block in across the street from the Murrow Building. The truck pulls up McVay comes inside,

according to Danny Wilkinson. He buys two coaks in a package of marble reds. McVay didn't smoke. So he obviously had someone with him. The list just goes on and on. But John Do too is totally

dismissed. He never happened. And when we were talking about the bomb squad being downtown,

I had access to the payroll records from the ATF. There were ATF agents brought in the night before the bombing. They will admit that they were working on a sting operation. But they won't admit that it was at the Murrow Building. My theory is, perhaps, and this is just a theory based on the evidence I've gathered. But perhaps they knew the building was going to be blown up. And the information they had was the building would

be blown up in the wee hours of the night. When no one came to blow up the building,

they called the bomb squad to give a clean sweep. And then they let everybody enter.

“I don't know. I can't explain a lot of things. I don't know everything, but I think I know a lot”

more than some people inside the government wish I knew. Well, that's obvious from the way they responded to you. So you've got to visit from the ATF to your home, correct? We did. After on May the 23rd 1995, they imploded the Murrow Building. And there was a lot of dissension about that. There was some that didn't wanted it imploded and some that said it needed to be. But by this time, see, that's been a month after the bombing.

And we were really hitting hard and heavy now because we're thinking things are not right. We're making accusations and bringing things to light about the John Doe 2 and the stuff going on. And we're really getting kind of scared. So we're thinking when we go down there and we see that

“building, we're going to let reporters know that we think there's a problem. So I remember a”

CNN reporter came over to my daughter and said, "Eady, what do you think about the bomb or the building being imploded?" And she goes, "I want to know where the hell was the ATF? Why weren't they in that building?" And she just went off on them. And so the next day, Pat Ryan, the head of ATF, a couple of ATF agents, including one Luke Feiney, they came because they wanted to calm us down that everything was okay. And they told us the

ATF wasn't there because they were at a golf tournament that was happening that morning. Luke Feiney, his hands bandaged up and he tells us his harrowing story about how he had the karate chop his way out at the building because he was stranded on the 9th floor.

“And that's how he heard his hand. Later, I found Sheriff's video of Luke shaking hands with the”

Sheriff. So I don't know how bad his hand was hurt. I don't know. It just kept your mind wandering.

of him on the 9th floor. He's holding a little silver lock box. 168 dead people behind him

are underneath him. He's standing there with the silver lock box shaken it. And there's 168 dead people below him and all these hundreds of walking wounded. And I'm thinking, man, whatever's

“in that box, it's got to be really important. Went to Franny and we ask, would you have in that”

box? Oh, I'm sorry. I can't talk about it. Can't tell you. Well, then how Francis a former FBI agent that was working on a story that is in accordance with mine, I told him about this. He took Luke Feiney out for lunch and he asked about that lock box and Luke Feiney told him, oh, it was

$150 worth of my kid's savings bonds. Why couldn't he tell me that? And would you really be

$168 dead people below you and all that walking wounded? And you're trying to save the lock box with your children's savings bonds that just didn't add up. See, I'm a simple person two plus two equals four. The facts of this case do not lead up to there was one bomber that came into Oklahoma City and blew the building up. Terry Nichols was in Harrington, Kansas the morning at the bombing. You know, they're Gary Nichols. Terry Nichols is the

convict to the compless of Timothy McVey, who's executed. Terry Nichols remains in prison. That's right. And there was a third one, Michael Fortier, but Fortier cut a plea deal with the government. And he was every bit as good as guilty as Terry Nichols, but he only had to spend 10 years in prison. And he was caught lying under other three different occasions. And he got a plea deal for

his wife. She never spent a night in prison. And she testified at McVey's trial. How she said

at the kitchen table and watched McVey show her with Campbell's soup cans how he was going to put the barrels in the back of the truck to blow up the building. So Fortier spent 10 years in prison

“and when he got out, he is now in the witness protection program. Who are they protecting him from?”

Things just don't add up. So Fortier is never given an interview that you're aware of? No, no. Have you ever spoken to him? No, I took his wife out for dinner, though. I went to of King Manira Zona and we went to the damn bar. And I said, you know, I'd like for you to tell me about your part in the bombing. You know, I know about you sitting with McVey and doing the barrels. And she begins to cry and said, I'm sorry. I can't tell you. My lawyers just told me I can't talk

about it. And I said, well, okay, if you can't tell me how the bombing affected you, let me tell you how it affected me. And I pulled out pictures of Chase and Colton. And I told her how different our lives were and the tragedy that we've been through. And I said, you know, I really wish you would help me. And at the end of the night, though, she said, you know, I would you write to Michael, he was in prison at that time. I said, well, I don't, what do you want me to say? And she goes,

“I don't know. But I think you'll know. I said, okay, I'll write to him. So I wrote to Michael 48,”

told him I had dinner with his wife. I found it, found her to be a very nice person, a very broken person. And he wrote back, but I felt like he was deceiving me. At least Lori told me she couldn't talk. He said, I'm glad you saw her for the person she really is. And I've got his letter at home. It's been 30 years. I can't remember what it was. But it was like that he didn't have anything to do with it or he didn't know about it. And it's like that's so untrue based on the evidence that's been recovered.

And you have no idea where he is now? No, he's in the witness protection program. He's probably got a new name and everything. I suppose we're probably supporting him, right? Of course we're. Yep. Most people don't like thinking about life insurance. It's one of those topics. You tend to kind of put off. But if you're married, you've got kids. You've got people who depend on you. You probably should think about what would happen if you weren't around. And that's what we've

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elevator and they had to pry the doors open. Well, it just so happened. My husband was CPA and he worked for that elevator company. We went and interviewed the men at the elevator company.

“They said as soon as the bomb went off, they were called to come down there and they helped get”

people out and to check on the elevators and they said there was no elevator that had been pride open and they said Cathy, if the elevator had free fallen from the ninth floor to the first floor, they would have been dead. Of course. So I don't know. I don't have the answers for this. All I know is that it doesn't seem to make sense to me. So, if you were interviewing Michael Forty-A's wife and the elevator company that installed the elevators at the Mara building in Oklahoma

City, I mean, you were doing reporting on this. Oh, Tucker, you have no idea. I've spent the last 32 years. I've had... I've had some of the bomber's family come to my home. Okay. Yeah, his family. His sister came... I had heard of my home for dinner when I knew she was in Oklahoma. She most people don't realize that she also cut a deal with the government. She tests fight against her brother. In her confession, she says that she was laundering $100 bills for

her brother. That he told her came from bank robberies. Well, there's a group of bank robbers living at Elahim City, the place that the ATF informant warns her handler. These people are planning a bombing. They're living at Elahim City and they're bank robbers. And she's laundering money that Tim says came from bank robbers. Anyway, and when the FBI came to Jennifer's home the first time, she was on her back patio with her charcoal grill burning the letters from her brother. But yeah,

I, in Jennifer, I had her at my home, and I asked her, "Can you tell me about your

brother's politics?" And she said, "Oh, no, I'm sorry. He never discussed that with me." Well,

I knew that wasn't true. And my daughter just lived two blocks from me by this time, and she had a new baby. And I thought, "Well, I'll take Jennifer over to meet the baby her brother didn't kill. It's what I thought, my heart, but I took her over to Edie's. But I didn't get anything significant from her. But I've been to Elahim City. I've had guns pointed at me. Edie and I did when we drove up to Elahim City. They, the armed guards came out with guns.

I've been to the... Who's armed guards were they? Elahim City's? I, I told Edie after I learned what I did. I said, Edie, we need to go to Elahim City. I want to

“know what's going on out there. I had been told that if you go there, you have to, if you want to”

talk to them, you have to attend their church service. They had church service every day at noon.

So we're driving up. It's just about time for church. I mean, it is in the boonies. I've never seen anything

like it. Where is it? It's the Muldrow, Oklahoma, Arkansas border. And you have to know, and I had

because it is in the middle of nowhere. And then we're driving up there and there's sign that says

“Elahim City, which by the way is Hebrew for City of God. There's these big domed buildings.”

Unlike anything I had ever seen before. And I grabbed the camcorder, which at that time was as big as a bazooka. And I put it on my shoulder and I start filming because I'm thinking, no one's ever going to believe I've been here. And then Edie says, put the camera down, put the camera down, and I throw the camera into the floor. And there are two men coming with guns to our car,

pointed right at us. I rolled the window down. And they said, can we help you? And I said, yeah, I'm here

for church. So our armed escorts took us into the church. And when we got inside the church building,

“which is another one of the round domed buildings with stuff oozing from the top, it was set up like a”

horseshoe type. The parishioners were around the perimeter of the building. And the iron cross band was playing. And these guys had guns on their shoulders and side arms on their waist and it'd be the iron cross band was playing and they were singing some kind of glory and guns to God. And then when they quit playing, Reverend Malar looks at us and he says, well, I see we have guests. And he said, would you stand and introduce yourselves? So we stood up and I said, well, this is my daughter,

80. We lost her children in the Oklahoma City bombing. And I said, we're ATF's worst nightmare. And they stood up and gave us a standing ovation. And so we were welcomed into the fold. Afterwards, they gave me a tour of the compound. They showed me Andreas Strauss, Myers House, Dennis Mayhan, which is the man that also accompanied Carole Hall and Andreas Strauss, where it was the three of them that made those three trips. So I found out where Carole was staying. I really wanted to see where Richard

“Wayne's snail was buried, but they wouldn't show me that. Who was Richard Wayne's snail?”

Richard Wayne's snail was a part of the cabinet, the sword and arm of the Lord. In 10 years earlier, the FBI had raided their compound on the same day as Oklahoma City bombing on April 19th. And snail got in a lot of trouble. He killed an Arkansas pawnbroker, shot an Arkansas state trooper. And some of it was out of revenge for what had happened at his compound on April 19th, 1985. Snail then was executed in Arkansas. In Arkansas officials chose to

execute him on April 19th, 1995 the day of the Oklahoma City bombing. But here's what gets

peculiar on the day of his execution, according to the prison death watch logs. Snail asked for the TV to be turned on in his cell and he smiled and chuckled as he watched the Oklahoma City bombing. His spiritual adviser was Robert Malar, the head of Oklahoma City. His spiritual adviser was Robert Malar, the head spiritual adviser of Elohim City. And he was taken back and buried at Elohim City. All the roads keep going back to Elohim City,

Elohim City. And coincidentally, at Snail's sedition trial, it came out at trial that he had planned to blow up the Murrow Building some 10 years earlier out of revenge for the raid on the covenant, the sword and arm of the Lord. I mean, the story just just so big, it's so big, but all roads come back to the same direction. If you're under 40, you might not know much about what the FBI describes as the deadliest, active domestic terror in our history,

bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City in 1995. They felt this. All the official

and instead doing killed 160 people, including almost 20 children. What an emotional experience. The government quickly declared the case solved,

“but three decades later, many questions were made. Did Timothy McVeigh really act alone?”

There is a strong likelihood that other persons are involved. Why were so many obvious warnings ignores Pierre Cayos? And who was he with? A man called John Doe number two. Who was John Doe two and where was he? We spoke with survivors, investigators, law enforcement, even Timothy McVeigh's defense attorney. The story that he was telling me, I did not feel was the truth. Watch me. Okay, see bomb files. It's extremely exclusively on tuckercrossand.com.

What do you think Timothy McVeigh's role in all of this was? Do you believe he was the bomber? Yes, I believe he was the bomber. I think he was happy to beat the bomber. I think he was happy to have the credit for it. He was the one person that I reached to a number out to a number of

times and he would never respond. One time I knew a law journalist that was going in to see him

and I sent a picture of Chase and Colton on there to him. And I said, I'd really like to talk with you. And the reporters said he just shook his head and said, well, I don't know what to think of this. You think he was happy to take credit for you. Don't believe he acted alone. No, there is no way he acted alone. At Gary Lake where they built the bomb, the prosecution and the defense agreed that the bomb was built at Gary Lake. Well, there were several eyewitnesses

at Gary Lake that watched men coming and going from the truck. The activity went on all day.

Sergeant Sergeant had just retired his first day of retirement and he went to the lake to go

fish and to celebrate. He watched those men there all day. There were people with him. There were people in the dreamland motel room that Chinese delivery person Jeff Davis. That's not who he left. He didn't leave the Chinese food with Tim McVay. It was some other people. The maid held a straws-sostra. She took towels to the room and the man that answered the door, wasn't McVay, and she was complaining to Liam Egalon, the owner of the hotel about that there were other

men in that room. David King, he was a guest at the hotel. He saw the men coming and going from McVay's room. Liam Egalon that rented in the truck, she would walk the perimeter and she heard men talking in there. It's like, who were these men? Because McVay drove the rider truck with the bomb in it from the front doors of the dreamland to the front door of the Murrah building,

“whoever was there with him were important and the FBI never bothered to find them.”

I wonder why? Well, I wonder why, too. I mean, the most obvious explanation is that the people with McVay were FBI informants and the FBI knew all of this was happening and that they were monitoring it, but for whatever reason didn't stop it and they're hiding that fact. That's, I mean, I think that's the conclusion most people were wrong. It's very logical. I've taken all the information that I have gathered over the last 32 years. I've written three books about the bombing.

I mean, the bombing really changed my life. The first one was when I started asking questions,

the second one's when I learned to forgive, which is the greatest story. In this third one that I just wrote, Shadows of Conspiracy, I call it a historical novel because I've created the story based on the facts that I have, but I've had to include the dialogue that I believe the men would have been having to create this thing. And it is the page-turner barn burner kind of book. It's a really

“good read. If you want to know my story in that book is much closer to the truth than what the”

American people think. So if you could just summarize what you think likely happened, what is the truth of Oklahoma City after 32 years of looking into it, do you think? Well, I don't have the whole truth. Of course. I have the, you know, I think they knew,

I think they were there the night before. And I think that's why they called the bomb squad in.

“And, you know, if they were trying to stop it and just flubbed it up, I could appreciate that.”

You know, say, you know, we worked hard. We tried to stop it. We're really sorry that we tried. It's been hanging like this. I don't know what to think. To me, there's something not right. There's something sinister about it. Clearly. What kind of contact have you had with the FBI since that day since April of '95? Well, I've talked to, I've talked to different ones. I've had Danny Colson. I write about him in my book. He was the agent that was brought in

after the bombing. And they brought in the team of the FBI's elite to cover the story of the bombing or to investigate the bombing, I should say. And I found out 10 years after the bombing that Danny had retired, not thought, well, maybe he'll tell me, now that he's retired, he'll tell me about what, you know, what really happened. I called him on the phone and he lives in Dallas. He agreed to meet me. I took all, I have three ring binders. I had a

trunk full, I loaded my car with those three ring binders. I went to motel six. I put the all those binders out on that bed and then a tap came at the door and I knew it was Danny because we had a specific time. I answered the door and at that time he looks like Simon Cal, he's got on that black tight T-shirt and blue jeans and had hair. He he didn't anymore, but he comes in and I said, I just have some questions, you know, and I'd start pulling out binders.

Why didn't you talk to Carol Howe? Why didn't anybody pay attention to the information that she's given them? And he's looking at then I'm pulling out Jennifer McVase confession that she was laundering $100 bills for her brother. I said, look at this, the Midwest bank robbers, that's the name the FBI gave them. They're living there at Elohim City. Why didn't they do anything and Andre's straw smire McVase calls him two minutes after calling the writer truck company. Why didn't you

why wouldn't he ever interviewed? And I could Danny's countenance was changing and he said, man, he goes, that explains it. I said, explains what? And he said, Kathy, after the bombing the FBI brought in their finest to investigate. And he said, I was called off and put on leave with pay. I've been on leave with pay the last 10 years. I don't know anything about these things. He said, you probably have more information in one place than any other organization because I've

“have information from everybody. And he said he was very, very nice. He said, you need to get a federal”

grand jury as the only way you're ever going to get this solved. Well, before I could get to nickels to tell him to do that, he doesn't trust anyone. Terry Nichols. Terry Nichols, they came in, I approached him about a grand jury and he wouldn't agree to it. But Danny,

I'll never forget that day because at the end of our meeting that day, he said,

are you afraid? I said, I don't know, who should I be afraid of? And he said, well, the people that you could get convicted and possibly put to death. I said, no, I don't have that much sense.

“I'm just doing what I believe is the right thing to do. Edmund Burke said, evil flourishes”

when good men do nothing. Something needs to be done. Will something be done? I don't know. I've been trying for 32 years. I hope we come to the truth.

You said that you forgave Timothemic Bay? I did. How? And why? Okay, I never said out planning

that grief, but there was something I could do about to anger. And I watched my husband die

“and I believe his anger and his, and the bitterness and hatred that he harbored in his heart killed”

him. And I said, I'll hold was he. 47. Oh gosh. And I remember, he was mad. He was mad at God. For not answering our prayer, because we came home the day of the bombing in one of the parents of a child that lived just by a side in the hospital. And he says, well, look here, God answered our prayer, our boy lived, which I would have said to if our boys would have lived.

But I've learned, don't do that. You can thank God that your boy lived, but God's not a cherry

picker. He didn't go through that day and think, oh, let this one in this one in this one parish. And I'm going to save these others. I mean, because it made us feel really bad. So Glenn was really mad at God. He was mad at Timothy McBeay. I heard him say it doesn't times the day. He dies. He's going to spit on his grave and toast his death with the bottle of buying champagne. Well, Glenn wound up dying before McBeay, but he was really mad at the government, because he didn't believe

he'd been given the truth. And watching him die scared me, I said, God, I don't know why this happened.

But I know if, if I have a chance of making it, I'm going to have to depend on you.

“I can remember after the bombing John Walsh of America's most wanted, he spoke to a”

group of survivors. And he looked at us and he said, you will grieve and you will grieve deeply, but you will survive. Up to that point, I didn't know if I would survive. I'd even thought about killing myself because I didn't want to live in that kind of pain. But I couldn't do that to my husband and to my daughter. So I said, Lord, you're going to have to help me. I can't live like this. You're going to have to help me. I've since learned that forgiveness isn't an event.

It's a process. I can remember when I read my Bible, I read the Lord's prayer, forgive us our trespasses. As we forgive those who trespass against us. And when I got to that part, I said, Lord, I don't know how to do that. So Lord, you're going to have to sit your holy spirit to intercede for me. I don't know how to do this. And Tucker, when I began to pray for Timothy McBay, Terry Nichols, it began to change my life.

I don't know what it did for Terry or TM. I went to Terry Nichols trial right after my husband died. And there was a break in the hallway. There was a little lady there with a brown coat on. Long brown coat. She was over there by herself. Nobody was talking to her. But I could see they were talking about her. And at that, oh my god, that's Terry Nichols mother. And I go over and I begin to introduce myself and she begins to cry.

And I put my arms around her and I said, I'm so sorry for your family. And we became great friends during the court. I sit with my friend Joyce. I sit with Joyce. We ate lunch together. I know that other families didn't understand why I was sitting with the Nichols family. But she did became, I felt like she was a forgotten victim and she did become my friend. When the trial was over, the jury forewoman said, we can't give Terry Nichols death.

Because we don't know how, he's guilty, but we don't know how guilty. Who were those other people

“with them at the Dreamland Hotel? Who was with them out there building the bomb at Gary Lake?”

And so they got off. But Oklahoma had a backup plan. So after his federal trial, he didn't get the death penalty. They brought him to Oklahoma. And Oklahoma planned to have a state trial and hope to get him executed. Well, just a couple of days after I returned home, I went to my

not looking what for a pinpal. And if I was, it wouldn't be that Oklahoma City bomber.

“And then at that, it's going to know more about the bombing. That's crazy. So I begin to write to Terry”

and he said, if you'll send me your phone number, I'll call you. So he began to call me. I learned a lot from him. He wouldn't, he wouldn't raise it a Christian home. He said, they only went to church for weddings or for funerals. And he said, we went then for a free meal. And he just kind of laughed about it. But he said, once he was arrested, in a cell was a

Gideon Bible. And he read it, covered a cover. And then someone gave him a AM radio. And he listened

to an old radio preacher that told him if he'd invite Jesus into his heart that Jesus would

“cleanse of his sins and forgive him for all unrighteousness. And he said, Kathy, I did that.”

Now, I know a lot about, you know, there are no atheist in the Fox holes. And I know a lot about jailhouse religion. I'm nobody's judge that I chose to believe them. Some people would say, oh, Kathy, he doesn't, he doesn't deserve mercy. He hasn't, yeah, you're right. He doesn't. He deserved it.

It wouldn't be mercy. So Terry's son hadn't seen him, Josh in four years. He was 12 at the time of

the bombing 16 at that time. McVay had just been executed. And Josh was very disturbed. His mother called and said, you know, Josh is having a hard time. I'm going to bring him to Oklahoma to see us dead. I said, well, come stay with me. And she said, well, I'm not sure that Josh would be comfortable. I said, well, that's okay. Just come by and have dinner. He's not comfortable. I understand. So when they came to the door that night, I answered the door and what was a short fat kids,

now tall, good looking kid, now look at Adam. I mean, what do you say? Maybe in the wise woman that I am, I said, well, I knew you were coming. So I begged to cake. And we began to laugh. We had dinner. Josh and I stayed up until the wee hours of the night. He told me how the kids at school had named a bomber and how he'd randomly get beat up when he walked down the street and how that he dropped out of school. And I had not told anybody. I didn't tell my family. I didn't tell

my neighbors. I tell no one because I didn't want it to be a press release or press event that I've got the bomber's family at my home. And they wound up staying for four days. And the last day Josh asked me, and I didn't take him anywhere. I just cooked for him, kept him at the house. And Terry's lawyer would come over and see him and stuff. And they'd go see Terry, but I didn't go out publicly with him. And on the last day Josh said, Kathy, would you take me to the memorial? It's like oh,

at that time everyone knew who I was in Oklahoma City. I don't know. I hope they don't recognize them. But how could I tell them no after what he had been through? But I could tell you to cover what I took him to the memorial. And I stood at shares number 60 and 61 with my arm around the bomber's son that God had done a work in my life. And I just, it amazes me the transformation. You know, John Walsh was right. I did survive. Here I am. 32 years later, I made the decision to forgive

“and I think it changed the ending to my story.”

That's a wonderful story. Thank you.