‘Wonder Man’ Co-Creator on the Show’s Origins, Near Cancellation, and the Status of the ‘Community’ Movie. Plus, ‘The Pitt’ S2E8.

No, not at all. This story is like a story with you, so I can't do it with you.

“Wow, that's what it is. Do you know what it is?”

Yes, exactly. This story is like a story that you understand. Because the story is about the whole life. You can't do it with your own children. No, no, I don't feel like it. The story is about you.

With this story, you've got to test it. Hi everyone, Kaya here. We recorded this episode prior to newsbreaking that Netflix would not match Paramount's bid for one of others, but as you'll hear shortly in this episode, Chris and Andy sentiment around this saga remains the same. We'll be back with you Sunday night, breaking down the finale of industry,

and then later next week with some more thoughts on Paramount becoming the soul bitter for one of your brothers. Enjoy the episode. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at thewinger.com and joining me in the studio. Tongues out guns out. It's Andy Grewells. We'll talk about the pit. We are. We also have a special guest today.

We do. Who's last name is guest. And his first name is my first name.

So, Andrew guessed the co-creator of Wonder Man is joining Andy and they're going to discuss the show, the series, and also probably a little bit about what we missed when we only did the first three or four episodes. And I don't know if you know this. Andrew is the announced co-writer of the community movie. I didn't know that. So, I kind of wonder if I can get a little internet love's community news. I wonder if I can get a name. I want you to pivot

to being the kind of interviewer who's just like, "What's your favorite Star Wars movie rank them?" You can't do this. Because right before we hit record, I told you I was going to completely change my interview style to appeal to vertical videos. Yes, and it should be junket guy who plays

“games with movie stars. I feel like I'm not the video game. First of all, that's what I was doing”

with spin 25 years ago. Like when I took Farrell and Chad from the Neptune's to the vintage video game stores. And Farrell said he was a beast for Gallagher. Gallagher? Gallagher. What are you talking about? Gallagher? I don't know. What? Gallagher? I mean, it's one thing I get the hard G-wrong on Helene or G-Lane. But you can't, you can't call it Gallagher and get away with it. I didn't. I just saw your face. And sometimes I can't tell. It's Gallagher. Okay. Like Gallaxy, right?

How would I never encourage me? Yeah. That's what I thought I was just like the

Gallagher Capelago. It was based on that. Yeah. You know, I figured like that's what they were crushing. That's probably a little bit behind the curtain stuff, which you love for podcasts, especially in Thursdays. Sometimes you give me a look. It is so shocked and worried that I can't tell if I'm mispronouncing something or you think I'm finally just going to drop the mask and say what I really think. Gallagher is what? The best video game of all time.

Great. Well, people get into this up at [email protected]. And there's a reason why I'm telling them that. Our episode about the season finale of industry will go up on Sunday night at the conclusion of the industry episode. Okay. I think it might be ering a little bit earlier than usual. It is to make room for the premiere of DTF St. Louis. Great. From Steve Conrad with Jason Bayman and David Hart. Which maybe we'll talk about next week. I want people to write it

in after they watch the finale because we'll do another industry mail bag next Thursday, I believe. We also might have some special shoresy stuff going next Thursday. So there's a lot of things in the works here. But [email protected] to email us the watch pod underscore and Instagram to follow us on the IG. And we can say Sunday night, finish watch the finale of industry. Tune into our podcast. And Conrad, make your on the Sunday interview with the creators

down in Conrad. So they're not going to be here. But yeah. Do they bet diminishes their appearance? No, it's not at all. I think that makes it even more authentic and industry. It's been announced we'll have one more season. The fifth season will come and I believe they're currently at work on it. I wanted to do news at the top. Let's do news. But the news is going to be the whole world that we cover is kind of becoming one story, which is this Warner Brothers paramount Netflix love triangle.

“Yeah. Why can't we all just come together and make one big cool company? That's what I want to know.”

That is beautiful. Just like one company. Take my brain, upload it and make it into soup. And then shoot it into space. And then when I get to space, I dock with a satellite and in that satellite is all the shows. And I just watch those shows up in space. I want to stop you that

is the plot of three body problems. So once again, trying to get it first. Yeah. You know,

what's that car called BYD? The car? Yeah, they try Chinese car that it's just like, this is just going to take over the world soon. I'm not aware of this. You're a big electric electric car. Yeah, but you're a big China guy. You're a guy. So I feel like he's letting you know. It's the it's the only story. If you were like following the trade winds, I guess this is now blowing towards Paramount. They improved their offer. I guess to $31 a share, I believe. And

both internationally and domestically, that, you know, fortune favors the bold. And they are that that that the White House, that the Department of Justice that whatever any trust hurdles that they would have to leap are sort of oriented towards the lessons and the paramount side of things in that. Yeah. Tetsarando says from Netflix is going to go visit

“the White House, make this make his case again. I think he's already done this.”

You tired of the story. Do you think there's anything worth worth kind of dissecting here? I mean, the story, the story is despicable. The entire thing is gross load some an awful and I wish it would all go away. I think that, you know, when we when we talk about industry, we often talk about how like the financial that the specifics of the financials are kind of opaque to us because we're not exactly quants, but also kind of obscure the deeper emotional cost of things.

Yeah. And so having this conversation, you know, a paramount like just throwing more and more money

at this the same week that Warner Bros. Discovery announces that it lost $250 million in the

quarter in which all these bids were made. Yes. Sort of underscores the galaxy brain. What is this even any more of a volunteer affair? I have to say, like I am not painting Ted Serendos as a hero or as some like, you know, valiant champion of the old studio model that kept people, you know,

“in pensions for decades, but it is a catastrophic outcome, I think, if the essence when this”

purely because they are right wing bullies and the government is lined up to give them whatever they want because they need to shove more things into their already fat gobs. Like I think that's really chilling. It's really disturbing. I'm not innocent or immune to the way the world actually works. Also, I'm of relatively good health and I run regularly and I rarely go swimming or go above the

third floor of buildings. That said, you know, so it sucks. And this is a conversation. This is a

gut conversation. This is not me saying, oh, we're not delay night of the seven kingdoms. Sure. I mean, that is interesting to think about the downstream ramifications of a prolonged negotiation. I don't know what kind of deadlines are next or, you know, there was like a seven day, something kind of interrogation of the paramount bid that seems to have been completed. I assume Netflix will make a new bid. I don't know how you can continue to just be like,

we're just going to constantly re-opening the bidding. I'm not mad. I'm not sure. Well, for David's as well. I'm sure it will. In the sense that he is the thing that he has is now the proxy fight for our politics. You bring up a good point about Ted Serrano. So I obviously, like, there are affiliations between the ringer and Netflix. I don't actually suppose it's worth mentioning. It doesn't necessarily mean that like, in fact, I can quite clearly state. I've got

met Ted Serrano's, but also my half of the pod is going to Amazon Prime. That's right. Sorry to break

“this. It's going to be a split screen. You have to tune in to be services, but the negotiation.”

Really awesome of those both ran on completely different CMSs. And you just have to like, one headphone, one headphone, one headphone, you know? I'm late on the week. I'm going to see what Chris said when I logged in a Netflix. Oh, that's what you was left. But there is like an Anton Shiger kind of thing going on here where it's like, if the rule that you if the rule that you followed brought you to this of what used was the rule, you know, like the whole idea that like Netflix up until six

months ago was the extinction level event faces, the industries we know it. And now it's like the only thing that will save us from becoming. I mean, Korean television. Yeah, right. So that's all good. That's pretty cool. It feels great. It all feels great. This is also the week where all of the Republican attorneys general wrote a letter saying that the Netflix merger would be ruinous to the constituents, which by the way, guys, let me speak to all the Republicans attorney, a Republican attorney's

general. You're crushing it. If you're doing great, you are really looking out for your constituents and we at the watch appreciate it. Sorry. We at Amazon Prime's Apple Watch appreciated. President G over there might have another opinion. Do you want to get into the pit? Was there anything else popping around that you thought was interesting? I don't think so other than the fact that my rewatch of the office with my children has reached what I believe to be the zenith of the office.

Do you remember the Michael Scott paper company? Yeah. And I just want to say that like the joke in which they're doing deliveries themselves at five in the mornings. They can't afford delivery person. And they vehicle they got is a disused Korean church van. And every time they stop to deliver paper and elderly Korean woman gets onto the van and just sits there. That joke has lived rent free in my head for 15 years and it still hits. Are you going to do the entire thing?

Oh, do you think like a dispader country? Well, I would say I can make it first of all. I could make any

pronouncement that I want. And I'm not really driving this disused Korean church van that is family

I feel like we're building like the show itself was up to the Jim Pam wedding, the return of

Holly, and then I feel like they might be good. Yeah. Okay. And then are they too young for 30 rock probably? I think they're probably too young for 30 rock. They've done parks. Oh yeah, parks they hit. They've done boardwalk empire. They did. But they didn't like it after Michael Pit was written off the show. Sure. Because he was like, he's like the youth character that they could relate to. This episode is brought to you by Volkswagen. It could be hard to do your own thing

“when everyone else is following everyone else. But that's what some of the best films are about.”

An outcast striving to make their own way in the world. And this is your sign to be that outcast

from us, from VW from the other outcast out there, take a chance. Make the most of every day

and don't be afraid to view off course every now and then. Because if you don't do it now, then when learn more at vw.com. Well, since we have such a full show today with Wonderman stuff with Andrew Gaston, let me get into the pit. Let's do it. I think you could feel maybe if you were listening to us last week. Like a return to like core principles for me. Where I was just like man, I really, I really love this show. This show is one of the most like empathetic

depictions of human beings. Everybody is given dignity in their own way. This was that. But like little slower. And so I have nothing bad to say about this episode. But it was just like

I do want to note that this season seems to be doing some different stuff with time,

which obviously like the thing that I probably associate with the show the most is using the one shift, one hour of a shift per episode, to make you feel like your heart is racing, to make you feel like the tempo is just blazing out of control. And certainly during the pit fest episodes last year, that was the case. As they have gone analog on the season, as the, you know, the blackout or the cyber attack happened to the other hospitals and that they've

shut down the pits, computer services. I've noted that like they then spent like more or less two thirds of this episode with two patients. Yes. And it was really, they've, they've really kind of like experimented in little ways within the pit way of storytelling. Okay. How long do you want to spend with the overweight gentleman who needs a very specific kind of intubation before you can get a scan? How much do you want to spend with Dana and the rape victim? What can we do and also

keeping tabs on these other people? And I can feel with those other people, the emergence of very big storylines coming to conclusions soon. So I was just curious whether you would noted that like if you'd felt that time, the way that they're messing with time a little bit. Well, yes,

“and the sense that the crisis is now apparent, I mean, I mean, I think more things, more shoes will”

drop, but like there is still a sense of deliberation that we can still pause. We can introduce new characters, spend time with them, treat them in a certain way, educate the audience about how it's going to work. At times I can border on the almost Simpsons Esk, like the pharmacist who's just standing in the corner being like, "I'm here to help," right, because if she's been there the whole time, I did notice some things with time. I don't know if I'm accurate about this, but I feel

like there have been one or two moments at least that stood out the season where they've asked what time it is. And a character has said it's 1230, but it doesn't align perfectly with the minute length of the episode, which made me think that they might be playing a little bit with multiple 1230s. Like we're in 1230 in rooms so that when they leave, they leave at the same

“time. And it's not sequential. Is Robert Downey still Tony Stark and one of those rooms?”

Well, weirdly John Slattery is no longer playing older Howard Stark. They are letting Dominic Cooper just play the part. Sure. I think destined to. I told Kevin, respect Slattery. I said to Kevin, is it Kevin? Is he making one mistake? Yeah, but overall, this is still my favorite thing to watch every week, and we can get into some of the specifics of the characters. I did want to start with a slight, about a criticism, but I noted with interest that after Dr. Lashimi's

slight humanization last week, she was back this week talking like me on the playground in 1984 saying stuff like RIT department has been given 24 hours to bolster our cyber defenses. Now, follow me back to Cybertron. Like, genuinely, that is some shit that we say on the playground. Do that wearing a screen mask with a shot of an hour. I think that her character remains. I thought that her aggressive treatment course with these sudden blind women was interesting. So there's a

couple of things I think were monitoring, right? Okay. There's the really, really, I wouldn't say

diagrams, multiple like signatures are needed copies are needed. Larry Antoine. Larry Antoine

are essentially like the hard drive of the entire medical profession. There's a short order cook bell that's ordering tuna melts or prescriptions. Dane is out. Dane is in. Dane is back. Princess

“is doing this. It just seems like there's they've already had a situation where I believe Santaus's”

patient was nearly misdiagnosed with something because of the generative AI that they were using. Now that we're back on old hard copy and handwriting. Max is in candlelight. Who knows what's going to happen? Alice, she means prescription of this rather intense medication that could kill you, but could stop the vision loss is worth keeping an eye on. And then there are some that I think are coming to a kind of conclusion. Like, I feel like the deposition that Melos supposed to

do feels like it was really more of an opportunity for multiple people to tell Mel that she is

a special doctor, you know, is a special practitioner of medicine. Of all the things the fact that like, I mean, I don't know. I try to avoid dalliances with the legal community when ever possible, but like, do they really schedule depositions on federal holidays often? Not Republicans attorney general. As you say, maybe under this justice department they do. But yeah, right. Right. Okay. What are, what are some, I mean, I have all the cases we want to go through. I think the

Alshini point I want to make is just like, it's a struggle for me because it's one thing to be like a proponent of generative AI in the workplace and then another thing to be like standing for the IT department, bullwork defenses like relax. You know, you don't, are you paid for by big tech? Like, I don't understand why she's rooting for only the computer systems on all sides of it. Yes, I think she's, she's also doing some of the things that Robby used to tout his own,

his own horn about, which is like this personal investment in doctors. She's like talking with Mohan about where she might want to do. She doesn't have a moment. That's true. I think she's been much more with the exception of her like kind of passing comment to Santos that you completely spun her out about like, you got to do your paperwork and you'd have to redo your year and I said,

“this is like, well, I'm fucking dead then. That's how I think Alshini has done a good job kind of”

connecting with both patients and doctors, as well as bringing about Claude in the workplace. Exactly. That's true. Let me introduce you to my colleague. Dr Claude. Dr Claude. Just a room. That is like a Philip K. Dick. No, no. Do you, do you, I gotta ask you about the, the, the, the treatment that you recommend for the I stroke. Oh, if I do it, if it was like, it could, it's like 5% death chance. Yes. Otherwise, you can get your eyes back.

Yeah, seeing a lot of movies. You could say I've seen, I've seen them all. You've rewatched them as well. I mean, like, I was rewatching scream and I was like, I don't really know if I need to watch scream again in my life. I probably will in like a year or two. But I was thinking about this the other day, vision or hearing. I think I, I think I might be getting towards vision. You'd be okay losing it

because I could still pod. I could hear you, brother. You know what I mean? Wow. This is an incredible

take. First of all, the blind podcaster don't tell Ted, Ted, Ted, uh, surrendered us this because you're basically saying that it's a audio medium only. No, I'm just saying, you can film me if I'm blind. True. But I can't hear you if I'm deaf. Wow. So you're willing to sacrifice your papers just for your pal. Yeah. Just to keep this going. That's beautiful. That's not the choice. This woman has, this woman has a choice between reduced vision in one of two eyes or death.

And no, but it's not the percentages wise. It's not the same thing. The speed with which she is like

“give me the magic pill is wild. The only thing I would do quickly in that moment is start Googling”

eye patches because I'm not taking the meds. It's fine. You could look pretty cool with an eye patch. You know, you can work it. That can be your whole thing. Like that guy you like the representative Dan Crenshaw. That's a great thing. Yeah. You know, yeah, I patch. You know, some people might not know that's a joke and they might think I am supportive of Dan Crenshaw. What, what do you would say what are you? He's just fighting for his constituent. Um, do you know what I mean? Like that. I do.

I mean, I, I honestly think that when you're, I think it's like they're just being straight with you. Look, they these are the numbers. Yeah. But she was wild. She's reckless. Yeah. Well, she wants to be able to see. You could see with one eye. It's really hard. Is it? Yeah. I got a week eye. And with, like, this one's not as good. If, if I lost vision in this eye, I might as well lose both. Wouldn't the other one become stronger? No, that's it. You're not a bat. I'm, you know,

dare you to make that moron. Okay. Um, I did have a question about the new analog system that they are using. Do you think this would have been an opportunity for the currently unemployed

Bugs Bunny on the sideline. I remember that. Remember that when he was coaching my weekend, it would just be like, it's Joel McCale. And it would be like, ah, yes, we break. I think first of all, it's really nice the way you are pushing this podcast towards advocacy of total employment, that you want anyone who recently lost their jobs to do the AI or to just not really being good. Any more. I think he's been misused. Chip. Yeah. You still believe in chip. I think he's a revolutionary.

You, you were, you've never been more all in than you were. I mean, it's always like none of these

Super Bowl's matter because they didn't come with chip. I thought you were going to make the comment. Did moment the Washington Philly game Mike Vic. Yes. Chip ball unleashed. Yeah. Is the greatest

“27 minutes of my life is watching Michael Vic against Washington going full chip. And you every”

year marked the anniversary that day by holding up a placard of some carrots. Yes. Yes. And I'm sorry. I'm not kind of going away from the pit. No, I, I think you, I'm really interested that you went to Chip Kelly as an analog hero as opposed to like the dude from stereo lab or something that you thought there would be an opportunity. Actually, you know, Chip Kelly and stereo lab probably lands about exactly the same for listeners. I would just like to turn to all the other 40 something

men wearing sports hat and ban shirt and say welcome brothers and I do for these 7,000 people in the world to 47. I know 47. And let's see as Zadia as this is perfect. I wanted to talk a little bit about Roxy who is the terminal cancer patient her parent show up parent show up parent show up. John Gets is the father. Great character actor is appeared in several Fincher films. This is

“obviously like building up to something very I think emotionally cathartic and momentous at least in”

my estimation. It seems like they are allowing the ER to be used as a kind of hospice center for for the end of this one's life while they wait for her room upstairs. Yeah. Any, any thoughts on about this storyline and how they're kind of playing it out? Well, I thought what was interesting actually was the way the most definitive puzzle piece of the story was delivered almost casually. By Robbie all this was building to I think it's clear this is a dignity of dying right

to die hospice care type scenario and the pit to common on it with its usual compassion and gravitas. But it built to the thing of like can we give from more pain meds and Robbie suggesting I wrote that word down but I don't have a great friend of me about the contradiction of

doctoral something basically like yes, it's like the paradox of effect or something like that or

“I can't remember what it is but it's like the doctor double effect retreat pain and if in so”

doing there's a negative effect so be it in some cases that could be the best outcome. Yes and that's almost tossed off at the end of the episode but that's quite heavy and yeah I mean they don't going back to your first point about time one of the more interesting things about the show is how it what it pays attention to and for how long it pays attention and they're just such experts and it deploying that attention so that we leave the apparently simple resolution of the ASL

patients storyline which by the way hey yeah yeah yeah see essentially is having like a full body meltdown because she looks at her computer screen at the wrong angle. Yes welcome to WFH life and but my point being the amount of time spent on that for that seemingly benign outcome made me think that and the way that she reacted to the paint shot made me think oh my god there's more to it right Santos is messing up because one of the underplayed cards so far in the series is youthful

fuckups it is a teaching of all. It's also people being stretched to thin and and doing these things in extraordinarily difficult circumstances which I you're right there is a little bit of like every doctor safe Langdon is pretty much like doing their best all the time as a batting a thousand so I

thought that the introduction of the doubt is always going to exist and it was well played in that scene

and we're paying and in an episode we are spending as much time with that patient as we are with Roxy it's telling us something and it's also doing some artful misdirection. In terms of like inevitably someone's going to screw up I thought it was played really well in this episode with the guy who Javadi and Ogle V thought had the bubonic plague yes but in fact had something that it was quite terrifying. This is not something I knew I needed to worry about. No this man has

insane blisters all over his legs all of his bodies and and they are like seriously considering that it could be you know some real 12th century shit happening to him and apparently it's a allergic reaction to cutting limes in the sun that's a pretty common place to cut limes

spuds McKenzie you are you are out there you're partying your porn drinks you're kind of a dog

me and the Republican attorneys we're all just out there who's our enemy this week is it the immigrants or is it Sharia law yeah anyway the yeah so that was appalling but but but again to the credit of the show everything is deployed with some intention it is a uh oh wow gross didn't know about that it is a oh are these student doctors going to fuck up and it is also a kind of a nope this one you're safe in this one it's just a quick resolution but the big one's coming

photographic memories where if you ever met one met somebody who has one and this episode joy

“who I believe at the end of last episode is like I have a photographic memory so I remember”

this episode begins with joy which is as I have a picture and it's like the pictures I would take of a cat right it's like this is a wonderful age and it's just a blur joy it from memory recites the entire board and um no one in it I have all the things where you're like oh I wonder if

that's a screw up like I don't think joy screwed up at all no I've never met anybody who's like

I have a photographic memory I can just do it you never met Chip Kelly well listen photographic it was it was purely creative in the space in creativity no I don't is that real well I've heard about like Karen Colkin can like look at the page once and do the entire scene yeah because he makes it up he does it may he's like what the fuck man this fucking fuck just like it was actually we're doing shakes bro it's Hamlet yeah um I I just it's it's interesting to see I guess I'm sure

that there are people who are really like I can look at something and it is seared in the memory I I have a hard time remembering the patient's names from episodes of the pit that I watched last night let's lift up the fact I do remember almost everywhere to omatic though so it's okay you find so you are joy for your joy yeah I was gonna say we should do more to this show is lifting up

“members of the photographic memory community you know and I think that's beautiful there's stories”

have gone untold but remembered for far too long uh any other cases that you we have bliss do photographic memories work sorry I've got to focus now does it work photographic memory suggests that she sees something and it's as if a photograph is taken in her mind if it's not just photograph if you have like a a a videographic memory and you remember everything you have seen

I have never more wanted to be on rogan and be like Jamie pull that up what's what's photographic

memory really do because I have no idea is it like she glanced at it and it's in her brain right or did she she think about it remember it and now but isn't it isn't flying out the way because the plot of this show sometimes does because respectfully I remember nothing from most of everything we've ever watched at this point it is just Swiss cheese I had this issue the other day when somebody was asking me about far goes season one and two and I was like

“I know who is on it I have no memory of one but I can do better with those I think Kiran Colkan”

was I believe in the beginning of season two wasn't it was he joy yes but I think he was this is good stuff yeah I think this is good yeah he was okay well that's the image of sorry all this was to say we would we would be this was working through it we would be put out of a job if if there was a video graphic put out of a job with I assure you we are going to be out of a welcome to our new host Claude Claude what did you think of forgo season two Colekin was

mesmerizing as righ your heart any I feel for way gentlemen oh right so this is what I want to talk about this is sort of main event yeah I it's hard to pivot from AI Claude doing Kiran Colkan jokes about fargo season two but you know that's the this is the medium we've chosen it's an imperfect medium and we are imperfect vessels I was blown away by this storyline both for the way that was presented but again just the reinforcement of what this show is about and what it does

and what makes it special because in the same way that the wire was about systemic rot and madmen and sopranos and varying degrees are about like male ambition in the modern world this show is about human dignity and that is a tough log line there's a reason why a lot of shows or movies don't dwell on it because it's a little bit soft or it's a little bit aspirational or it's a little bit fairy tale almost and lack some of the necessary you know cynicism or jadedness or

wit or drama or state whatever the medical drama is the right place for this and I found it very moving to have that reading I find it very moving to have it reinforced week to week both within the artistic successes of the show and in the world that we live in I think they're doing a really good job where the patients are going to come and go by necessity how the doctors and the students

cannot the pit for its moments of saying like well do you know that nurses are attacked at 3% like like higher rates than anyone else in any other job in this country it's like yeah like that there's going to be exposition dumps but the real thing to watch for is like olgolvi initially being flippin about this guy but then obviously betraying some of his own kind of the way he thinks about the world to be like I'm only asking these questions because I

actually know where he needs to go to get the right treatment you know like and olgolvi is like

“I they're sort of moving his character around they've sort of moved joys character around and I think”

yeah even even robies somewhat more like I'm trying to punch the clock here um day you can tell he's relating to patients in a different way slightly more frustrated a few few less like let's go sit in the family room and have a long talk about who you are and what's going on and yeah I think this season is distinctive from the first season in some really great ways in that sense do you where is your personal limit for like were you more upset at the implication that Abbott was

inserting his fingers to mid-digit up this man's nose and down his trachea or when the woman's tongue is pulled out and sutured tongue was fine you're cool with that I thought so yeah Abbott I mean anything Abbott does I'm cool with he could do to you he's a gentleman at camo and you're like open up no problem in a way it was kind of a reset because Dana was a little bit off board I guess we should talk about that this is an extraordinary two episode arc she's gonna win another

I mean it's just billion percent that moment she's like I'm really glad to be here today like

the way that the camera the camera loves her for good reason she is an exceptional actor for the screen yes and you've got a very beloved talented performer but the first season was her almost overachieving given the material

“getting punched aside I think that this was very much a knowing kind of like we want to give her”

something to do individually this season and her bathing the body of Louie and being a saying nurse for the repictive has been quite quite a run of episodes for Katherine one NASA and again the the the way that a show this nimble can be responsive in real time to audience engagement with it so this season is being broken written and shot

well the first season is having this incredible effect and going under victory lap and no

while in Katherine La Nassar winning Emmys it builds to the essentially the midpoint of the season this is the eighth episode I think and it ends with Robbie and Dana next to each other partners in the opposite of crime saying how are we gonna get through this mess medicine partners in medicine okay how are we gonna get through this mess it was gonna ask you and then here we are ready to start the

second half of the season um little disappointed to hear that Jack's gonna ride in the ambulance for that guy and go check a nap I hope he I hope he doesn't take three hours off or something wait who's going where jack is Jack Abbott yeah he's going yeah did you feel like it's

“interesting that like I believe he's main cast the season he was obviously a big hit yeah”

last season and they knew they wanted to in the way they always liked to slightly zag they were

like last season he came in at the end when his shift was supposed at least he was there at the beginning when his shift was ending and he's there when his shift is starting again now he returns as the star of your favorite unmade Michael man film and then uh leaves again for a little bit yes to come crashing back I wonder whether or not the one upside of paramount buying Warner Brothers would be why colon marshals colon the pit colon jack Abbott colon Casey

because I want you to get Casey from Yellowstone and jack Abbott together and one's a medic and one's a Marshall and they're just driving around Montana and Wyoming and trying to help people can I make another pitch so it's why colon marshals colon the pit colon jack colon Casey and it's about Dr. Jack Abbott SWAT Team Warrior Emergency Surgeon and Casey Boys chairman of entertainment for HBO trying to navigate the new reality in a fractured media landscape

I think that one has it equally really it would probably be the exact same audience pick them they're both going to be good shows you've got an interview coming up with Andrew Gess the co-creator of Wonderman uh we're going to be back on Sunday night with our interview with Conrad Kay and Mickey down the creators of industry as the industry season finale concludes you can come and listen to us and watch us talking with Mickey and Conrad and sharing some of our initial thoughts

on the finale and I think we'll go deeper next Thursday because that will that that's our Monday show

sarcario live on Netflix you think you do I mean I know I do how much sarcario live on Netflix

“at 6 p.m. Eastern blink twice if you're being included in CR month I mean it's it's you know”

I'm I'm I'm definitely a paid consultant on CR month it's not a labor of love Thanks to Kay and Kay Sarah thanks to everybody for helping out today we will be back on Sunday night and then we'll talk to you next Thursday happy first day of CR month gonna be a long one I am very pleased to be joined now by my good friend Andrew Gess the co-creator of the excellent Disney Plus Marvel series Wonderman Andrew welcome to the watch thank you for

having me Andy it's a real pleasure to be here do you feel like you have been like were you groomed for this over like 10 years oh my god no I feel this is my first podcast

never first podcast never done a podcast before what yeah people might not know this about you

but you come from the comedy world you've written for like the you're 30 rock and Brooklyn 99 in community the podcast and comedy worlds run very closely together and I don't know what it is about me no one's wanted me are we about to find out why I've made me I might be the worst interview just on my god am I supposed to be funny on this no no just a very sober reflection please congratulations on Wonderman thank you very much it's excellent and I guess my first

question is how you make it so good no I genuinely I it's exciting to talk to you about the show not only because I enjoyed it so much but because you made something really good in an ecosystem that is challenging and is notoriously opaque to outsiders so I'm curious about the process and maybe we

just start in the most basic place possible which is how do you Andrew end up co-creating wonderman

for Marvel with uh destined annual credit so I had worked with Marvel once before okay

“on Hawkeye all right and that I think was a representative of a more traditional what one might”

think of a experience at Marvel I got a call I know Joe Russo from having worked with him many years of community right he called me on the Sunday before thanksgiving week of 2020 so it was locked down in New York home it's the week going into Thanksgiving everyone's quiet everything's quiet and he called me and he's like hey the producer who did all our Marvel movies trend they need a new head writer on this project they're doing are you free in the short term and I said sure and she

calls me three minutes later she says I'm gonna send you six one hour episodes I want to meet tomorrow to talk about it we start shooting in New York and a week and a half and we want to rewrite the whole thing and I said okay cool wow okay do you take the turkey out of the other yeah I mean nobody had thanksgiving so yeah so you were off to need so I didn't go to night I realized how involved you were in Hawkeye this is I'm learning as I do the podcast this was

I I came in towards the end I mean they had had a writer's room they had rewritten after that writer's room a couple times I was literally the last call they could make to anybody they tried to and and a lot of major set pieces had been committed to there've been previous previous

“initials that's what we know about Marvel generally that that stuff is locked in and then”

often the work of the writer is to fill in the story it can be and it's when it when things are not working as well I mean the thing I will say is that they want to make sure they shoot something and that they actually make it and then I think there is this belief that we can fix it as we go and that was very much the case with Hawkeye like I you know Haley's character was written to young the dynamic between her and Jeremy wasn't there there was a lot of extra twists and turns

that were sort of coming up the works and and we worked around the clock and I was very much involved with Trin and Brad Winderbaum who was not running TV at the time but it was very hands-on on on this project and I needed their help as much as they need to mind and we we got through that process the the beginning of Winderman was very different and none of the people I'd worked with were involved but I got a call essentially that they were looking for somebody on this other project

Winderman started in a unique way for them it was destined with shooting Shang Shi with Sir Ben Kingsley and I will refer to him as Sir Ben I would expect that you would the rest of this interview damn straight every time I have it we have gotten an email from him you will you'll get an email and he loved working with Sir Ben and as a kind of a joke he turned to his producer on that project this guy John Lynch wants and said what if we did a show where Trevor's character went back to LA

and they sort of kicked that around and it was kind of just a bit and then they made a fake poster and they got excited at the idea and learned unfortunately there was a competing project internally at Marvel that Steven Brissard and Brian Gay were already trying to do a wonderman series set

chocolate and peanut butter but you're chocolate and the peanut butter could be the same show

“yes and that's when they started meeting with writers and so when I had my first meeting”

Dustin was there yeah it's Brian it's Steven Brissard it's John Lynch it's a lot more producers than it is typical because these were two projects that were merging and they knew that Trevor was going to be one of the main characters and they knew that this other person was going to be Simon Williams they weren't sure if he had superpowers if he was going to get superpowers what was his deal because people who you know the casual fan probably doesn't even know but even

hardcore fans have a hard time putting their arms around Simon Williams Wonderman not the strongest most established bedrock person in the Marvel Universe he's in the comics he's had a lot of iterations that are rather complex he's half robot he's vision related he's he's been murdered he had an industrialist father who helped and a we're making him sound like all successful characters they all have industrialist father who's been murdered but they and unlike Hawkeye or other

“things I've met with at Marvel there was not a run of Wonderman comics that they were looking”

to pull for right they were sort of just open to like we wanted to be about Hollywood like who is

this guy okay and that was sort of my job after that first meeting was to be like to the

focus I know so you walked in that meeting and you were like what I can tell you about Hollywood is writers order Mendocino Farms a lot and they were like tell us more they all we did essentially yes because it is there's inside baseball and then there's like you can feel the seams outside of how inside you are and somehow at least in my mind you made it very inclusive and not off putting which is can be the case when things are slightly navel gazing just how did you

characterize your Simon Williams from the beginning I thought about there had been a profile of a very famous actor who's very talented in the New Yorker and I had read it and I'm been in struck by this person who is maybe more difficult than others to work with and has you know but he's had a series of successes if you will he has a run of it's almost like a succession if you would you would maybe say that about this person I would you wouldn't I'm not going to say that

and it was he's a strong actor he's very strong he's a very talented very strong actor and I thought and one of the things about that article which was fascinating was that even before this this person had made it big they took themselves very seriously they had their product suit and they were sleeping on the floor of other people's apartment and I was like if you gave that person superpowers they're not putting on a cape and flying around trying to say they want to be

Daniel Day Lewis they want to win an Oscar and I was and that's when it sort of clicked on who Simon was and then it was a sort of it was sort of problem solving from that point of like why are he and Trevor together what is the sort of the main thrust of this but like once I sort of locked in on the idea they're like oh this guy's talented and good but in his own way and the superpowers are the obstacle yes something that he gives a fuck about that was nice

the twist to the pilot that is so fun and makes you feel like you're in good hands is that you you're you're inclined to root for the person that's presented as your protagonist and then you watch him completely fuck it up in a way that everyone who conspires to fire him is right which is a really fun way to begin this is all fascinating to me also because maybe with my more pessimistic view of how some of these projects have been put together I assumed that there

was a Wonderman project that you were a part of and then someone you know historically they have they have executives in the room someone was like you know we've got a guy who plays an actor and then you had to had an hand go to imagine a country estate and beg an Oscar winning night to come hang out in Pacoima that is not the case that was not the case that said how did you bring him into the fold and make him feel excited to be a part of my god that was incredibly intimidating

like you know my first meeting like Serban was excited to be a part of this project because of

destined he loved working with that and I had to sort of pitch him what this show was and that was really scary and he's not particularly nice in his first meeting like he is he's had a lot of first meetings he's had he's met so many of his dummies who come here and try to tell him

“something is going to be funny and then it's terrible yeah and it was scary and I think part of”

what happened slowly was sort of learning to trust each other and that knowing that I was excited to be working with him and that I would listen like he wanted he knew this character he'd been doing this guy for 13 years yeah and and knew all about Trevor's childhood and what his relationship with his mother was and I wanted to know what Ben Kingsley had figured out about all that stuff Serban Kingsley and Serban just want to be sure

we're talking about the right one yes not the other right Kingsley and and that and the more he

incredible in the show and it is so bizarre in in a way in a diamond of and a celebration of the fact

that like one of our great living actors is giving one of his great late period performances on this half hour on Disney Plus it's shocking and awesome and exciting I also find it really interesting that the creative decision that Shane Black made and whoever else was involved in that Iron Man 3 process it's one of the weirdest and most bold choices in the decades long run of Marvel in movies to make the Mandarin actually a hack actor in the way through the movie

the fact that that Marvel has found this to be like a it's a it's a a source of continuing story I think is really it's hopeful that they made one really weird choice and that's the one that's the gift that keeps giving yeah weird and controversial choice there's many people who that's their least favorite thing about that movie and I not here to argue one where the other but I do think part of it is a testament to Serban Kingsley's performance that there was something there and then

when uh when Dustin was doing Sean she and they were reintroducing the real Mandarin into the MCU it felt like it needed to be addressed and then I think much to everyone's delight that ended

“up being something that was really fun for everybody involved yeah and that's why we got more of it”

and so how did you find your wonder man how did you end that settling on yeah and that was not easy there's the the casting process and Marvel is complex and uh a lot a lot of people have a lot of

strong opinions the thing that we always knew because on the page when I was writing this without knowing

who was going to be this person uh I knew that we needed somebody who was really good at acting I know it sounds stupid to say you walked into Marvel and said that yes stones on this guy I know but this character has to act both well and not well in the show and that is something that is not easy yeah you know in fact acting poorly in in a believable way is harder I think for actors than acting well and um and so that was always the main criteria the guiding principle

and uh Dustin had a relationship with the Aya and when he saw him in top dog under dog on Broadway

“he said Andrew you have to go see this and I went and I was blown away and I'd already loved him”

on what in the Watchman series and I was like can we get him and when Ya Ya was interested then those conversations started happening where he wanted to understand Simon he wanted to know Simon's backstory who who was what is whispered with his mother and father was where they were from because we had said he's first generation that was sort of interesting to us as like an outsider you know this idea and he's like well okay but where where for yeah and then we had to get

specific and in getting specific in those conversations with Ya Ya that ended up in the show as well so I mean sir band and Ya Ya brought a lot to this show not just in their performances but in the storytelling well there's a level of specificity in the show that is so refreshing and so entertaining and it's also a signal to me as an audience member that people care people are paying attention and you're on location throughout LA and also the larger area

Koima is mentioned and featured um my favorite moment maybe in the series is the Chamoy episode which is also very specific yes but that's where real surprise and real art and joy come from how did you make that a guiding principle for the creative process and how did you retain those moments I imagine the actors the ones that you're dealing with gravitate towards those moments but how did you protect them I mean they I didn't have to protect I was it was a bizarre experience creatively in

that from the beginning marvo's like we want to show to feel different and I thought they were full of shit I thought they were like yeah we want the window dressing to look different but we want to make a marvel show and they were like no we really don't I promise I can't be like I don't I don't believe you and I would turn in the script that I turned in for this pilot and they're like we like it I was like no you don't and I'm like yeah yeah when we do and that was the show they

“wanted to make so they um I think for for many people and marvel this was a chance to do a kind of”

show that and storytelling that they don't normally get to do and they were excited by that and there was as much as there was this rocky road for this show in terms of making it finally out into the public there were champions from the beginning inside marvel they were excited and they weren't saying can this not be Pacoima they were not saying there needs to be more action even when we tested the first two episodes which we didn't front with an audience and it didn't test all that

great because a lot of people were confused by the show I was like okay now now they're going to say

let's you know change it and they were said no we have to market this differently so what's amazing

making the show were another you have made this across multiple errors of marvel of Disney of Hollywood

“and I think the last time I saw you was priest just priest strike maybe and things were going”

then the strike happened and I mean you shot some of the show three years ago I believe yes during that time marvel's entire TV experiment has was it felt like judgment was passed on some of it and they've turned pages and what they're making and what they're doing what was that process like of navigating these errors you know they can be rooting for a certain type of show but

was there ever a moment when you were like this might never even get made there were several

those moments you know we're not only did I not think so I didn't I I didn't have to navigate any of it I just just held on and hoped and prayed essentially like it is hard to get anything made at all as we all know and Hollywood in general is it going through a lot of change that's really difficult to navigate and we by the grace of somebody story gods we survived by the skin of our teeth several several moments where we almost in survive you can tell you like like we were

sort of one of the last projects in the door of the previous iteration of the marvel

“Disney Plus experiment where they were saying yes to many things and I think they're like we can”

be anything which is a nice place to be until suddenly you can't exactly and so there was a period

during our writing where many things at marvel were looked at sort of through a new critical

lens of what can we pair down and we were definitely one of those things that was taken off there their board for a moment there and the producers who were part of our project fought like hell to convince people this is something worth continuing with then when the strikes happened I think there was some more discussions about is this a thing we want to stick with yeah we shot exactly half of this project which is kind of like the worst place to be yeah and they stuck with it

and then then we finished and they people at marvel really wanted this thing to air earlier and they were not allowed to have that happen and they stuck with it and they they finally put it

on on the streaming service how is your year been when you finished having it was really

hard I mean I've been working on something else this all last year but it was not that was a very difficult meeting when I learned that it wasn't going to come out until 2026 that sounded like a very long way away was there ever a moment and this could also be I don't mean continually frame this as like you versus evil empire maybe this was a collaborative moment when there was a note a suggestion and opportunity to to cross paths with the more

mainline marvel universe both you know in terms whether they felt good creatively or not like there's a little bit of it in the show at hint yeah of it but where there are other opportunities or suggestions that you had to navigate no there were not this was from from conception

“they never we were never a part of a larger storytelling and I think this goes to the fact that”

even four years ago there was a desire internally and marvel to separate some of this stuff and and the an understanding that there was a lot of storytelling that was alienating to some people is to try to stay on top of and that maybe maybe projects could exist separately how is it was it fun to wrangle the reality into it because you did get a number of people who are clearly I would have guessed that these are people who are willing to make fun of themselves in Josh

Gad and Joe Penteliano and you know you also took honestly it's the author's move you like did the take a pause take a breath mid season bottle episode about the door man there's a lot of fun being had and I think fun is something that is hard to quantify in television production particularly in twenty twenty six or five or four or three how did you maintain it how did you maintain that spirit I mean that is a I mean I haven't come up in many comedy rooms

that's sort of in my DNA I think of like let's let's make sure that this is fun yeah for someone for some but for Josh Gad at the least well yeah I mean that was so I think one of the things the people don't necessarily know about the execs at Marvel is that they're all big movie fans I mean they all went to film school they all started in lighting my talking yeah they all started in the little west west of Hollywood shitty apartments so when we were talking about Simon Williams's

and when we were casting Joe pantaliano that was an opportunity for people to like we had this

incredible list of all these character actors who maybe are not household names but are

darlings to the people who've grown up in the eighties and nineties with movies and he shows that and and he was obviously the top of that list but there was that was just a fun

“romp for all of us and I think there was this relief for all these people who were dealing with”

literally world stakes in all of their other projects where they're trying to figure out how to get very complicated you know pipe out about the fate of the world that this was the opposite of that and we could have fun and there was there was a spirit of fun there's one moment I wanted to ask about um specifically in the the big audition episode where all the the finalists are brought

to the home of Bonco back and and they're in providing and doing lots of very accurate exercise type

things and Simon is provoked and in an improvisation exercise and is so angry he punches through a man and actors face killing him instantly to the horror of everyone yes this was very reminiscent of the television show the boys and I'm not saying you ripped it out yet I was like oh yeah I think doing this and then you you had you you had your cake and you ate it too because then

“it's a dream sequence I I wondered if there were any moments when you or when your collaboration”

with Destin where you felt like the the tone of the spirit was wobbling or wavering like this could be darker this could be sillier because the the what I love about the show is that you were

consistent there there we've that took very good question and one that we never I wasn't really

interested in taking it to a dark place and no one was pushing that it felt like we all wanted to make the same show like there was you know we we talked about Atlanta or Dave or Barry when we were when we were thinking about this show and those were very much in I mean Barry is a much darker show than we were especially as it went on as it went on and that was not really where I want it to go but it was it was that was a scene that I there was push back internally about like a

dream sequence they were concerned like is that we've seen a lot of dreams sequences and I just

“had faith that this would be fun and I think it turned out to be pretty fun it's one of my favorite”

moments it's a memorable moment the the series ends in a place that feels really true to the characters and it's a really it's a buddy comedy it's a relationship story did you ever in the many years give thought about will people like this and we have to do more how are we walking any of this back because it ends in a very big place on from the powers perspective yes I have yes I have thought about that as have anyone blink twice if anyone yeah I mean I don't want to here you can't tell me

but but I but it does seem like the reaction has been positive and it seems like the it the there's there might be energy and movement towards making more there might be great I'll take that and uh I remember when we were shooting the finale yeah yeah I came over to me at a certain point was like oh so Simon can't act anymore yeah that was my takeaway too and I was like why not and he's like because everyone knows he's got superpowers and I was like well the DODC knows he's got

superpowers right not everybody look at you mr. Marvel do you know DC just you know to be like well the secovia course actually allow for him to perform you know he could work in Europe you know there's different there's exact that's exactly right that's great um yeah um and what other octogenarian legends of the screen could you entice maybe now that we've established it we could get many more it's it's pretty great um well I love the show I have you here so I'd be remiss

if I didn't ask about your other announced project I don't know if you can talk about it people might not know that you were a writer on community for a long time and that you have been announced of quite some time ago as the co-writer of the community movie and I was just saying to Chris nothing moves the needle on the internet like stories about the community moves yes so I wondered if you could give us any update on that we got very close to shooting that really we as the writer strike

and actor strikes were ending all of our cast were available all of them wanted to do it yeah we had a line producer we had a script that we were gonna in the process of starting to rewrite and one of our actors projects sort of came in conflict in terms of timing and I don't want to single that person out because because people with shame them you know the community fan base and please yeah community fan base do not do not be upset with any of these being I guess no

and okay and so it's it's hard because they're all incredibly talented and very busy

want to do sort of a arrested development Netflix season where we're shooting some people totally

“in part we need the the fun and energy of that show is the chemistry between these people in the”

same room around a table and so we have to have them all in the same place and from what we know

even anecdotally about how community was made the first time there were plenty of there were plenty

of reasons to do it like the good wife where Joanna Margley's wouldn't be in the same room as our co-star it does sound like especially as documentaries come out that there were potentially opportunities to do that the first time there was some of that done with one particular actor I mean occasionally but the rest of the cast are delightful all got along great and we want them in the same

“place I think all of this is an argument for more comedy writers doing super hero shows yes”

I think it's really interesting that it came from Jo Russo because I think it's under under remembered that makes sense yeah what a seemingly odd choice it was for those guys to direct a Captain America movie when in fact they had been doing action movies with spirit and heart in miniature on community and in fact their ability to wrangle ensembles made them incredibly prepared for what they ended up doing and there's a certain way of approaching story that really

alums of harman projects find their way oh that's right MCU but not tan harman himself dan harman has has

“I feel like what they should do is create a pocket universe for him like secret wars two”

with like not the one that they're actually making but like the bionder and the track suit from the

80s yeah and he could just play with oh my god the problem is dan has a hard time with schedules

you could say this as a collaborator as a collaborator somebody who's worked with them very closely from many years in many hours in many many hours not always the predictable working hours not always the normal setting and marvel likes to have material and keep moving forward thankers hours thankers hours I get it yeah and your congratulations on the show thank you it was awesome and it was such a nice surprise not that it was good but it was the way the way in which it was good

was so refreshing I really appreciate that in worth the wait thank you I'm having people who I admire and respect like the show is huge I mean that has been one of the rewarding things about having this out and the people seem to really like it and the people who I love love it and that's really nice and also me and also Andy perfect see thank you for making this

your first podcast thank you for having me