Patrick Lencioni: 5 Dysfunctions of a Team, How to Turn Conflict into a Leadership Advantage | Leadership | E394

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A vibrant organization is one that's healthy. I can't tell you how many really brilliant groups of people failed. Because they were smart, and they knew their business, but they weren't healthy. Patrick Lenzione, a bestselling author and founder of the Table Group. The pioneer of the organizational health movement.

He spent his career helping leaders build healthy, high-performing teams. The people that run the organization have to be behaviorally aligned and cohesive.

“You have to put a little bit of structure in place, just a little.”

That's what a healthy organization is. What do you actually do when you go into these companies and try to determine whether they have an unhealthy or a healthy culture? When you go into an organization and they're talking about what marketing doesn't do this or sales doesn't do this or engineering can't do this, you're like, "Oh, that's a problem." One of the things that I wanted to dive deep on today was the five dysfunctions of a team.

The five dysfunctions are very straightforward at the base of the triangle is trust. Trust leads to conflict which leads to commitment which leads to accountability which leads to the collective result of the team. If people don't trust each other, the other four dysfunctions are not going to be overcome. So when it comes to trust, what are some things that leaders do that really sabotage trust, who they don't realize that they're doing it?

The biggest one is that... What's up, young and profiting family? Here's something most leaders don't realize.

When businesses fail, it's not always because of strategy.

More often, it comes down to one thing, an unhealthy team. As a founder of a leading team of 60, I'm fired up for today's conversation with Patrick Glenn Ciani. This is an extra special episode because we recorded it live and in-person in Nashville.

“So if you want to full, human connection and experience, you can actually watch this episode on YouTube or Spotify video.”

Patrick is a best-selling business author and one of the sharpest minds on organizational health. Today we're getting into why smart teams still fall apart. What healthy team leadership looks like and how to spot dysfunction before it quietly destroys our culture. Long time listeners, you already know Patrick and we loved his last episode so much that we're replaying it this Friday. So stay tuned for that.

And if you're new here and you're all about listening, learning and profiting, hit that follow button so you never miss what's coming next. Pat, I am so excited for this conversation. First of all, I'm so excited that we finally get to meet and person. Person, I know. We've done like hours, literally hours of content together online. I interviewed you about two years ago and that's when I first discovered your work and working genius.

I did a webinar with you. What was that? Three weeks ago? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we keep hearing from people that have seen it. Oh my god, I'm getting such good feedback from it. That was probably one of the most fun, probably definitely the most fun webinar I ever did.

That's wonderful. It was just so cool to have a co-host and you did so great. And for us too, I mean, we were all saying like, man, we love that you know our stuff so well. Yeah. And when you talk to somebody who's passionate and knowledgeable, it just makes it fun and interesting.

Now, something that's interesting for my listeners is I'm part of a lot of entrepreneurial ship groups. And when I told them I was doing this webinar with Patrick once the only. Everyone was like, oh my god, I can't believe we're doing you're like a god. So other entrepreneurs like, like, you really are people just love your stuff. Everybody that I talked to you that's an entrepreneur like my favorite entrepreneurs and I'm friends with that I know are so good.

They all have read your books and like they treat it like it's a Bible.

“And you should just be so proud of everything that you've put out in the world for entrepreneurs.”

Well, that's very kind and as a lover of God, I know I'm not him. But I know you didn't mean that, but it's really wonderful to know that so many people are using our stuff.

And I meet people that I've never met before who go, I've been using your stuff to run my business for 15 years.

And I think you got that I get to serve people and help people and and doing what I love. Yeah, it's a blast. And speaking of what you love, how would you describe the problem that you actually try to solve? Like, like, what is your mission? Oh, I love that question.

So it started and for the first 24 years of my business, it was simply this. I was a kid and I saw that my dad was frustrated at work and I didn't like that because I loved my dad.

And when I got out of college and had my first experience, I decided, oh my gosh, there's a lot of dysfunction in the workplace.

And I wanted to make work fulfilling and dignifying. And I knew that I needed to help companies be successful. But so that they could combine success with the dignity of their employees. And so what I was really trying to do is make work a good experience for people to make their lives better. And I didn't want it to be to to cause them to lose dignity.

So that was really what we were setting out to do. But since I started my career at Bane, I knew that if I couldn't help CEOs make their companies more successful, they wouldn't actually want to invest in making it healthier too. So let's stick on that word, health.

“Can you define organizational health in your own words?”

Yeah, you know, we struggled for years. Holla on trying to figure out what the right word is. Because it's wholeness, it's soundiness, it's making a functional. And we were like, we don't want it to sound like healthcare. But we really said it really is a vibrant organization is one that's healthy.

And that means it makes sense. And it really comes down to four things. The first one is the people that run the organization have to be behaviorally aligned and cohesive. They have to treat each other well. Yep.

And that comes, you know, they have to have trust and good conflict and hold each other accountable and commit to things and get results. But to do that, they had to be intellectually aligned too. They had to be like, yeah, this is why we do this. This is what success looks like. We're going to get there.

“And that's what we spent most of our life doing at the table group is helping companies get behaviorally and intellectually strategically aligned.”

But beyond those first two things, then they have to communicate the heck out of that. They have to just talk about it all the time, repeat themselves.

We always say CEOs are CROs, chief reminding officers.

Too many of them don't like to do that. And finally, you have to put a little bit of structure in place. Just a little to reinforce all that. That's what a healthy organization is. Now, most organizations, the vast majority of healthy organizations are really successful.

Because they figure out how to get smarter because they're healthy. I used to live in the California and work with a lot of startups. I can't tell you how many really brilliant groups of people failed. Because they were smart and they knew their business, but they weren't healthy. Yeah, there was infidien politics misalignment.

And it was so weird because I thought all these smart people are failing. And some companies that don't seem all that smart were succeeding because they were just so much healthier in a line. Yeah, so when people prioritize strategy and knowledge over organizational health. Would that never win? Even if you have this smartest people, the best strategy organizational health comes first in your mind.

Yeah, it can. You can succeed for one cycle. Okay, especially if it's a business that lives on like peer innovation. So maybe you come out with a product and for a year or two, you can get through it. But ultimately, the dysfunction starts to invade. And I remember I was just thinking about this yesterday.

“I think it was Peter Drucker who said, "Culture eat strategy for breakfast."”

I think it was him who said it. Yeah, I remember that one. And it is so true.

Now, the problem is CEOs adhere that, then they go to work with a consultant who's super touchy-feely.

And I'm not that. I'm so glad that I started my career at Bain, which was all about analysis and strategy. Because I said, "Okay, that's important." And if you can combine a healthy culture with that, any CEO will buy into it. But if you come in and say, "Let's get naked and hold hands and sing and fall each other out."

Catch each other, fall in out of a chair. That's just dumb. Yeah, so what do you actually do when you go into these companies and try to determine whether they have an unhealthy or a healthy culture? You know, it's so funny because everybody wants to come up with an assessment or a survey. And what I like to do is, if I can observe the team in a meeting...

That's all you need. I can see the behaviors. And in other words, do they debate with passion? Do they ask tough questions? Do they have hard conversations around the business?

And is there like some level of what we call healthy conflict? Which in outsider might think, "Well, this is kind of an uncomfortable conversation, but they're not uncomfortable." They're just going after it. So we can tell like that. The other thing you can do is you can talk to people in the organization at every level and just find out like,

"Do you come to work and have a sense of where you belong and what you're all trying to do and are you aligned?" Or do you ever compete with people in the organization? Healthy organizations don't have people competing internally. They're focused externally on their competition and on serving their customers. And when you go into an organization and they're talking about, well, marketing doesn't do this.

Or sales doesn't do this or engineering can't do this.

And honestly, if I observe an executive staff meeting for 45 minutes or an hour, I usually can see the signs that that's happening. So what does healthy conflict actually look like?

“So not just the conflict itself, but over time, how do people in business handle conflict in way that's healthy?”

It's a great question because the key is this.

It's always a little uncomfortable.

I've been married for 33 years and if tonight I go home and my wife and I have a discussion in argument, a debate, a disagreement around something important, which is what we do in our companies. It will be a little uncomfortable because there's that moment where you're like, "Come, you don't understand this and we have to do this." And there will be a little bit of tension and discomfort.

And that's a sign that it's real. Healthy conflict though, you know when you're engaging in it, but it's not the end of the relationship. You're not worried that like this is it. You're just worried that like this is going to be uncomfortable,

but you know we've been through this before. This is how the sausage gets made. And it's by virtue of the fact that we're willing to do this, that we know we're going to come to the right answer and afterward we'll be really glad we did.

But while we're going through it, it's not fun.

Yeah. But running a company is not supposed to be fun, it's supposed to be real. Marriage is wonderful, but there's a lot of real moments that are kind of uncomfortable. And once the decision is made, even if it wasn't the decision that you wanted, it's all about committing to that decision, correct?

Yes, and if you don't have that conflict at the end of the conversation, you don't really commit. I've seen teams do this. It's like they don't want to have conflict. So the leader goes, okay, we're going to plan A.

And I don't, I know plan B and plan C are possibilities, but we don't need to talk about that. I've chosen plan A. People don't weigh in because they want to avoid having disagreement. Nobody really buys in.

And they go back to their team and here's how you know it, too. And their team goes, how is the median they go? Well, we're doing plan A. What do you think? I'd have done plan B.

And now, people aren't really in. But if everybody debates at that meeting, the leader can then go, we're going to plan A or plan B because of what you said. People will go back to their office and go, we're doing plan B. And we argue about it and they heard me.

It wasn't what I wanted, but I think it's right and we're in. So conflict is actually necessary to get to commitment. And when we skip conflict, people don't really buy in. They smile and nod and it's called artificial harmony. And then they go back and they, they don't really agree.

I loved hearing about this term artificial harmony. Actually, just learned about it when I was studying for this interview. So what is artificial harmony exactly? How does it show up? And you know, I think it's a bigger problem in our society today than it's ever been.

And that is when we get together and we think. My job is to affirm that person and make them feel good and to avoid any discomfort here.

The problem is, and there's something left to be said.

And the organizations, this struggle with artificial harmony, the worst, are churches. Because they think we're supposed to get along because we're supposed to be nice all the time. And so you go to a meeting at a church and people are smiling and nodding. And then they go out in the parking lot. And they go, that lady's a ding-back.

That guy's an easier jerk.

“And it's like, "Oh, actually, you should have said that in a kind way, but in a direct way and worked through it."”

So it's when we trade off in the moment disagreement and discomfort for long-term disagreements. And what happens when we go with artificial harmony? We end up, it's so interesting. When we don't have conflict around ideas, it ferments over time into conflict around people. So it's so funny, it's like people on a team that care about each other will actually argue in the meeting.

And then after where they feel like it's been said, people that can't argue in the meeting, it lingers. And eventually people find out, "What do you say about me in the parking lot?" And now they've really hurt one another. So what we say is, don't kick that can down the street, have that conversation there, continue to build on that trust. And then you get so much more used to it.

The next difficult conversation you lean into, and it leads to really good things. Why do you think it's a worst problem now? Do you think it's just younger generations, not knowing how to have conflict or... I think social media. I think because, so I have four kids all between 27 and 19.

And it's so funny over the years. I'm like, why don't you just pick up the phone and call him? And they're like, "Oh, no, I don't need to do that." Do you think the tone of his voice? Because they're buddies.

Or even in really, I have four boys.

“Maybe you should call her and ask her if she wants it.”

No, no, no, we just text. If I put a period at the end of the sentence, she'll know I'm not happy. I don't get it. And I think that society has become more separated. And COVID certainly accelerated some of that.

It's like you and I talked about even though we had these great conversations on Zoom.

There's something about finally being together in three dimensions that allows you to take to the next level.

Yeah. And so I just think that there's too many other options and society is kind of made it okay. And so there's so many I was talking about yesterday who's entire company is virtual. And I know he was kind of sad about that. No, some of that's necessary. And man, though, things we can do on Zoom these days is great.

But there's something about getting to see people on a regular basis. It's wonderful. And so I think it's just the nature of society. Young and profitors raise your hand if you've ever googled one tiny symptom. And then five minutes later, you're convinced that you're dying.

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Policies issued by western southern life assurance company not available in certain states prices subject to underwriting and health questions. So one of the things that I wanted to dive deep on today was the five just functions of a team which I think we've been talking a little bit about. But I'd love for you to just go over each five at a high level and then I'll ask you some follow up questions and I want to do some scenarios where I give you a scenario of a team and then you tell me. Your primary dysfunction their secondary dysfunction and how we can solve it.

And that is if people don't trust each other the other four just functions are not going to be overcome. So the lack of trust needs to be addressed and when we talk about trust we're talking about vulnerability based trust like if you and I are going to trust each other.

“I have to know that the other person's willing to say things like I don't know the answer I think you're smarter than me can you tell me how you did that I think I screwed up I'm sorry I was kind of rude yesterday like.”

But make it about I'm not going to cover up who I am we're going to be really raw and that is what leads to trust some people think trust is just I've known them for a long time.

And so I can predict their behavior it's it's about vulnerability so you can build trust with somebody and I'm out of weeks if you work on it you can work with somebody for years and never have trust.

So it's vulnerability. Okay. Trust enables conflict. Okay. Because when I know that you we trust each other we're vulnerable.

I can debate with you about something and you know and I know that if you're right I'm going to go oh wait I think you're right. Oh I'm so glad you kept arguing with me about that and I know you will too so we don't think that. Disagreement and conflict is a threat to our relationship it's actually the pursuit of truth which is good for our relationship makes sense. Yeah to make sense trust leads to conflict. Without trust conflict is bad.

Now I'm just kind of win the argument or maybe even manipulate you. Okay okay conflict is what allows us to have commitment what we talked about before so you argue with one another at the end of the argument you either convince somebody or the leader goes okay we've we've had every argument we could have I'm going to break the tie. People will buy into that. Commitment is necessary to overcome the hardest dysfunction which is the fourth which is. The unwillingness to hold people accountable accountability is key.

And the thing is we're just not going to turn to each other in a meeting and say hey how I think you you're not doing what we agreed to or pat I think you kind of violated something right there because if you know I never really committed to it. How much confidence are you going to have to remind me that I fell short but if we all committed then it's like hey we committed together so what's going on.

“That is the hardest one in society I think this is human nature people don't like to say I think you need to do better.”

And then the final one seems so obvious but it's it's about results and the last dysfunction of a team is when people aren't paying attention to the collective results of the team. But rather their own results and this is natural I'm I'm more worried about my department or my career or my reputation or my status or my bonus. Real teamwork means overcoming that dysfunction to focus on my results rather than ours so those are the five dysfunctions trust leads to conflict which leads to commitment which leads to accountability which leads to the collective results of the team.

So well explain the very well explain so when it comes to trust what are some things that leaders do that really sabotage trust who they don't realize that it's that they're doing it. And the first one is that they are invulnerable.

In other words they buy into that saying that a leader's job is to always be on and to be confident.

And and I always like to say there's that old saying when I was a kid there was this deodorant commercial that said don't let him see a sweat. Oh yeah and the best leaders of the ones that go check this out because you go so you know you're sweat of course we're all sweaty and then people go oh well if you can acknowledge your flaws or shortcomings. Then all of us can and we can enter in this together see the leader has to dive into the pool first. But many leaders are like well if I'm vulnerable.

“I could lose credibility they could take advantage of me and that's why one of the greatest things a leader can do is say I have the confidence and the faith and trust to go first.”

I will be vulnerable years ago after I wrote my first book I worked with a very famous CEO first client and he stood up in front of his entire team.

And nobody would ever just disagree with him and he stood there and I he did 360 feedback reluctantly and I administered the tool and he stood up to go over the results with his team and he read out the first flaw he had. And he said what do you guys think and they all said no I don't think you have that flaw. And they went around the room and all confirmed and affirmed him and that he didn't have that and I interrupted and I said you're the only people who filled out this survey and he just didn't want to hear it and they didn't want to tell him and that was the day he basically said.

Don't don't expect me to be vulnerable and nobody else did so they'd go around and meetings and they'd say I'm doing fine I'm doing fine nobody ever wanted to say I think I'm struggling I need help. Alan Malale the CEO of Ford the guy you turned around four years ago said that was the hardest thing is getting people to admit when they had a problem because they go to meetings and try to project confidence.

Every single team meeting that we have we open it up with our one word and you're allowed to say I'm tired I'm cranky but a lot of times is I'm happy I'm excited but sometimes people are like I'm sick today you know and then you just kind of know where everyone's coming from. And maybe that's a good thing I guess for for vulnerability it is absolutely good and it's not until people start to say the negative one sometimes that you realize the positive ones are real. If everybody comes and goes I'm fine and it's like you don't look fine as I actually I'm really grumpy today.

“Yeah and then they're like okay you're human that's what we want is we want to know that the other person is authentically human.”

You don't trust people that can't be human and it's just like the Christmas card thing when people send a Christmas cards and our family's perfect. You're just like I'm not learning a lot from them and it's when that person finally goes you know we struggle with this don't you and you're like oh thank you for being authentic now I can be authentic. I can be authentic and we can actually love one another in truth. Something else that I found really interesting when studying this this book which was really the first time I really went deep on it was was studying for this interview.

Was this idea of peer accountability and why that's so important and why accountability can't just come from managers. So talk to us about why it's important for your actual peers to keep you accountable. First of all the leader can't be there all the time. And if the leader is the sole source of accountability that's a massive burden on them and it doesn't transfer responsibility to the team.

And so peer pressure is a very powerful thing and it can be very powerful in a negative way it's kind of like think about kids you know.

When your parents tell you to do something but your peers are actually telling you to do the wrong thing the peers usually win. But if you can create positive peer pressure. If you if you can agree with your friends like and and you see this in life my son who just moved here he's going to join this group called that's called F3 and it's a bunch of guys who get together five thirty in the morning I'm glad they didn't ask me. And they get together and they work out for half hour and then they they get to know each other they pray and then they go live their lives.

But that kind of not authoritative peer pressure is so powerful in making one of people do the right thing so on a team.

“If if your teammate and this is true in sports when a teammate says hey you need to you need to go harder during the game it's that's even more powerful than the coach telling you.”

Now how do you improve peer accountability or how do you know it's a problem.

If you never see it happening and this is where meetings are so big because remember I told you before I'd observe a meeting if I never see people on a leadership team or any kind of a team.

Holding each other saying like hey by the way I think you you guys need to do a better job on that it wasn't up to snuff. If that never happens. You know that something isn't going on because everybody is going to have that sometimes so the question is how often do people give each other tough feedback. And and like I tell people it's actually a sign of love for a peer to actually tell somebody something hard. I used to think when you don't hold people accountable is because you cared about them it's actually selfishness.

It's actually I don't want you to dislike me and I don't want to feel uncomfortable I'd rather let you suffer through poor performance than me have to take a risk to tell you something.

And you know it's so funny when I say that to teams they usually get it I say if you're never pushing each other you don't love each other.

What we do and I'm like so do you ever tell somebody they're not doing enough no because I care about who and they're like yeah about me.

“So so that's how you know you know it because you see it and I said before it's it's uncomfortable but it's it's after you go through that was something you know this you have dear friends that have gone there with you.”

Afterward you're like you cared more about me than others who wouldn't yeah so that's what we have to teach in our organizations as well cool. Okay let's do scenarios I have a game called diagnose the dysfunction and I'll admit if I don't know yeah I'm sure you're going to know everything. Okay let's start with the first one all right a senior leadership team meets weekly meetings are polite and efficient nobody interrupts disagreements are rare. After meetings executives privately complain that decisions are unclear and priorities keep changing execution is inconsistent but nobody raises it in the room.

That's it common comfortable and dangerous because eventually there's going to be so much resentment. And that's why what they're doing is they're trading near term discomfort for long term discomfort or maybe failure and it's funny if people go oh gee we never get on each other's nerves and nobody ever complains but we failed.

And then you need to become a minor of conflict you have to mind for disagreement so you have to go to meetings and go.

“And when you when you suspect that two people aren't on the same page you have to go you guys don't agree to you and they're going to go oh no no we're fine no I don't want you to be fine.”

I want to know what you really think so I want you to take different sides of this issue and I want to hear from you so if a leader is neither vulnerable nor is inviting and mining for conflict. That scenario is what they're going to get and when if they say why just we just don't nobody ever challenges one another it's because you're not making it impossible for them not you I was just with the leader of a big organization. He would just never enter into the difficult conversation and I was consulting to them and he wanted me to provoke it and I would tee up something and somebody would say something and he would not participate so everybody else sat back to and I just realized he has some wound that cannot allow him to participate in conflict.

Nobody on this team is going to do it. They think that they're going to get punished for doing it. Yeah that's so important what about the fact that so many meetings are virtual now do you think cameras need to be on. It's very interesting. I remember right after COVID started we we had probably our third meeting on zoom and I remember sitting there and I said I have to do this and one of my great employees who I've worked with for 30 years I mean she is like a part of my family I said to her I don't think that you're doing this right and I'm a little concerned that you're not stepping up on this.

And we talk about it later is like that's when what's that saying this shit just got real because we had the first difficult zoom combat because zoom to dimensions make it so much easier not to go there.

“Yeah because one after the meetings over you can't go check in with somebody very easily so we're like oh I don't want to go there so on zoom you have to be even more intentional about having hard conversations and it's harder.”

It's just hard because you just want to get off the call and and you just don't want to go somewhere where you're going to have to do you have to kind of a call after the call and after the call so.

What this you can do it there's teams that are purely remote that are better than teams that work together. But they have to work harder to make sure they do it. Yeah it sounded like a lot of it was like noticing people's body language and so cameras do need to be on at the very least if you're going to be doing virtual meetings. You know what else this is really intrigued I just thought of this I think we should turn off our own camera so we can't see ourselves. Because how often in life have I been looking at my own face yeah I do that all the time and we and we all do and so we're over critiquing ourselves we don't get lost in the moment.

And we're like oh look at me I look like this and yeah for every 10% of meetings where it would be good to know that there's 90% where you need to be unaware of yourself and just there. So I think that sometimes I think phone calls are better than zoom. Oh yeah I mean I have to be honest with my company only really client calls are cameras on. Every other call is cameras off and I find that we're really in the zone and productive and I don't feel like anyone's like not being attention or anything. But to your point I can't see what's really going on.

Yeah I think that when there's trust a phone call can be messier you have more fluidity you can be doing things if you know they care. Yeah sometimes on zoom if you don't they have to be paying more attention but you really want to get at the underlying issues. I want to trust them enough to know that we can be having this conversation with no visuals and it can be great. Yeah okay that makes a lot of sense. Okay scenario two one executive delivers strong individual results but repeatedly misses commitments to the team and behaves dismissively in meetings.

“Peers notice but don't confront him the leader handles it privately resentment quietly builds and the key to word is privately.”

And and this is one of the things I've I've been saying for years that people always often say but we were taught opposite of this and I don't think it's true and that is criticize privately.

Praise publicly. Now if we're talking about in front of a hundred people on stage at a meeting that's different but in your teams we need to have enough trust where we're. Crit critiquing criticizing or correcting publicly and praising because with the problem is so in that case. When the CEO doesn't say to that person in front of the team hey I think you care more about your numbers than you do about the rest of the team and it seems like you're you you're focused on yourself and not about them. If he or she says that in front of the team two things happen.

One everybody knows that he or she is holding that team member accountable so they're like I'm so glad the leader is doing that.

Yep.

“When they don't do that everybody assumes well the CEO isn't calling them on it and they feel like they have the permission to do that too.”

So and and then they'll go to the CEO finally and they'll go why don't you ever tell that person and they'll go oh I do privately it's like well how are we supposed to interact with that if we don't know.

Is it uncomfortable it is I love my team I've had some of them I worked with for years I still will call them and they'll call me critical in front of people in a meeting.

And that's actually slightly uncomfortable and really productive. Now what is isn't there some line that you cross so where it could get inappropriate. Representing somebody I know that even with my own company like we're uncomfortable to call somebody out on flat in a slack channel in front of other people so talk to me about how we can navigate that. Okay and I used to be like yeah what what is that here's the line. If there's you're starting to have doubts about whether they belong on the team another if it's a real corrective action not a correction.

Like if I know you belong on the team and you're a good team player and I call you out on something I'm not threatening your status on the team. That's great but if I am actually starting to think that I need I need to rethink whether they belong here or make I'm starting to have doubts.

“This is the interesting part then you need to handle that part of the conversation offline.”

But you still need to go to the rest of the team and let them know you're doing it because you're you're you're protecting their dignity. But once again if if there's a person or a team and they're a bad performer and nobody thinks you're addressing it. They're going to start to get frustrated. Yeah so you have to kindly go listen we love that person or team. I'm taking them through corrective action I really hope they make it and we're going to do everything we can I just want you guys to know I'm not ignoring it.

And some people say well is that like talking out of school and it's like no. If we're on a team we should have that level of trust but again calling someone out in front of the team when you're starting to doubt whether they belong there is cruel. Yeah. And that's hard because sometimes you're like I don't know and went into out air on the side of dignity. Yeah.

Makes sense. Really helpful. Yeah. During planning meetings a leadership team argues intensely people challenge assumptions. Once a decision is made everybody commits an executes and alignment.

When results dip they revisit the decision together without blame. Heaven. And you know it but it's just they're going to fail sometimes and they revisit the decision without blame but they front load. So there's discomfort in there which means when things don't go well it's not uncomfortable it's like okay I've seen companies.

Teams of all kinds that fail and and recover faster than their competitors do that never failed but they went so slow and they were so tepid because they didn't want to have arguments.

Better to better to make a decision as a team execute fail correct quickly than to sit around and avoid difficult conversations and be slow. Now is there any situation where or like some in common where people think it's a problem but really it's one of the five dysfunction's like are there any common scenarios where leaders are trying to solve for one thing but it's really one of the dysfunction's.

“I think often people will say that because because the they'll look at some external thing like oh the problem is is customer service.”

And then you'll talk to people on customer service and they'll go you know we're not sure what we're supposed to do or they'll say whatever problem going to market. And then the problem is sales and marketing are not aligned and and the sale I've been in a room and they'll say that like well we're having a problem with going to market and they're they're just not working together. And I'm like so all the go to market people do they report to somebody in this room and look oh yeah they all do not like yeah so here's the question are you guys completely aligned because if you're not you're leaving them to fight bloody unwindable battles with each other.

And oftentimes this is very common how a two leaders at the top are agreeing to disagree and they think that's mature.

The problem is they're then giving marching orders to their people they're not necessarily aligned and they'll go it's not that different though.

And a little disagreement up here at the top looks like massive confusion even one level below. So oftentimes what I find is that a lack of conflict and commitment is what the problem is at the executive level. And it's leading to what look like operational or execution errors down below but it's really a behavioral thing at the top more often than not. And and yet the leaders will go and all here this all the time people in our organization are working well together they need to be better at teamwork.

It's easier and more important in a small team.

Yeah because what big companies they can take a hit to the ship and still stay stay alive. Smaller company like hiring one bad person or allowing one poor performer on the leadership team if you have seven people on your team one of them that's not trustworthy and that the other people get frustrated by and and and when that person is there it creates problems that is hugely problematic. So they can get sunk quicker.

“But the beauty is and I love working with I think small to medium sized business is the lifeblood of our society and economy.”

The great news is if you have an easier opportunity to create a real culture in those organizations and to use that culture to create a competitive advantage. So so it's the upside is much higher the downside is lower but I think most people that start businesses like that because they want that risk and that reward working in a really big organization. Kind of sucks because it's hard to make a difference and you can tolerate a lot of dysfunction over the years and still survive. Yeah and it would be better if it actually hurt more so you'd fix it.

So so I think this is easier and more critical in small to medium sized companies.

Yeah that totally makes sense. So when you think about these five dysfunctions you wrote this book in 2002 so over 20 years ago still more relevant than ever like reading this it still feels like crazy. It hasn't really changed but hasn't changed do you think about it differently. Like is one dysfunction more important than ever because of the always on slack and remote work global teams like has anything changed the way that you think about the five dysfunctions. However the five dysfunctions assessment that people take like a whole team takes it they feel it doesn't take very long and it gives them their results.

In the five dysfunctions are we green we're really good at that one are yellow we read. We have found over the years that by far the lowest score in general is on accountability and that's even more than conflict people willing to say.

“I think I need more from you or I don't think you're doing I think you could do better there's just something about human beings that just don't like to say that.”

Yeah I think that trust and conflict one is the one that's struggled more over time and for the reason we talked about before I think younger generations just aren't I think that like my kids grew up on social media. Like then they went through Covid and even in college there's less you know my kids can do their work from their room. I was in the library because that's I had to do that I had to work in groups and it is a lot easier to go through school and through work on your own. Yeah and so they're they've adjusted to that which is not not necessarily good so I think trust and the conflict of the ones that are suffering the most and you know it's interesting huh.

Is it because we're not very good at having interpersonal conflict. The conflict we have publicly is really ugly.

You know I know people that would never sit down with somebody go hey I think I disagree with you politically on this or tell me what you're thinking about this let's talk about that.

They have weighed that but then they'll go online and just flame something in the comments you're right. Really why don't you go talk to them I'm not going to talk to them in fact I'll smile and not at them and then I'll know and I'll go and say it's crazy. That's so interesting it's like basically everybody just took it online all the conflict that is so crazy okay let's talk about meetings so you also wrote a very very popular book about meetings. And death by meeting yeah I've heard about this book so many times yeah I always hear about this book and so talk to us about meetings and the like.

I am somebody so one thing that we you know is that I'm a galvanizer right I like to get one is so I love meetings right and I love daily meetings. And you make them interesting too yeah and I have a business partner one of my business partners hates meetings and one of the things that he did was like remove a lot of the meetings. And I felt like I was you know less effective because I stopped having so many meetings so talk to us about the right balance of meetings one we should have meetings when we shouldn't.

“And also you certain personality types do better in meetings than than others you know I remember the day I decided to not write this book because I don't ever sit down and go I'm going to write a book I think.”

Oh my gosh I want to figure that out and then I write a book about it and I write a story about it too because of their all fiction except for one. I remember sitting with a client in a meeting and everybody there was so bored and I was too and they were a client and this is when I was doing a lot more like.

Both when my wife went into the hospital and then was there for a month and then when when she went into labor both times I was at this client they said get to the hospital.

“So I'm in this meeting with the CEO and his executive team and I'm sitting there just going there this is a problem somebody's got it what is the deal with meetings and I remember that day sitting there thinking okay there's two things going on here.”

One it's boring and boredom is not a good answer for anything and I remember thinking because I was I took a screenwriting class in college and said a boring movie is a bad movie. And boredom allows people their minds to drift and they start to evaluate this is a terrible movie in the first ten minutes and I remember thinking if you can't get people's attention in the first ten minutes of a meeting they're going to spend the rest of the time checked out. So so we got to do a good job of hooking the people in the meeting like hey you guys this is what matters.

But then I thought but there's another problem what is going on here and I thought actually they're having four different kinds of meetings in one.

And people are never we're never clear about that it's like are we brainstorming or are we just reviewing this are we supposed to be voting on it are we just supposed to be listening.

Should I be taking notes or is this just a check in and the answer is yes.

“And I remember comparing it to family life and being in the bathroom with my wife in the morning getting ready for to leave for work and her to take the kids to school.”

And I thought it would be like we're both brushing our teeth and imagine I call it meeting stew and imagine if my wife and I were like hey who's picking the kids up from school should we have another baby. Where are we going on vacation this year hey who's going to take the kids to soccer practice tonight and then we leave.

We're making a decision where we and and we were doing it on the fly and and of course I like to say and then you come home from work in my wife says I'm pregnant and I'm like.

Did we decide that because I thought we were having chicken for dinner tonight and I would go to meetings at companies and they were doing the same thing. They were combining like administrative discussions with strategic ones with personnel matters and tactical decisions and they were doing it interchangeably and nobody's good at that. Not good at it at home, we're not good at work, we're not good at in social situations and so everybody would leave the meeting equally frustrated about for different reasons.

The strategic people would go we didn't give enough time to that strategic thing that the administrative people go we didn't decide on when the Christmas party is going to be somebody else would say we never really wrestle that issue to the ground and I thought oh you can't do it at once. And and in death by meeting what I decided was the problem isn't meetings it's bad meetings and that we've all come to accept it oh they're just bad like CEOs ago yeah I hate him to it's just corporate. We just do it and I realize no no no no no it is the number one thing you do if you're a leader.

The number one activity is running a meeting and which is sounds so depressing to leaders but I remember saying if you were a football player and you told me oh I just hate games and practices. Or you were a surgeon it's like operating these people I hated or if you were a teacher it's like if it weren't for the classroom I would love this job. When you're a leader meetings are where you lead it's where you make decisions where you get people hooked in where you debate where you orchestrate the company and we had an entire thing called business or the people running business hated meetings.

And so what I realized was it's your fault that they're boring and mine is a leader and it's your fault for confusing them all and trying to do a bunch of things at once.

“So I came up with this model that just said you need to have four different meetings and everybody got not more meetings and like yeah 10 10 minutes a day.”

That's all don't sit down. Secondly once a week go through the tactics. How are we looking this week what do we need to do to solve near-term problems and then every few weeks it's really ad hoc but take on that big hairy topic that every and get into a room get some beers get some pizza and argue and clear out your schedule and then once a quarter. If you want to do a lot of work, you need to go back and step back from the business and reassess when anybody tried it this this model they were like it's changed everything.

Because what people said is we didn't hate meetings we just hated the fact that they were so confusing. And if I go to a 10 minute meeting and know that all we're doing is checking in and I'm going back to work I don't mind that. Or if I go to a meeting and know we're only going to talk about tactical things and if somebody brings up some long-term strategic things will carve out two hours to go over it on Thursday. And that everybody loves the strategic meetings and then the off-site meetings were more just to like take a breath and check in.

Separating them out actually reduced the amount of time people spent in meetings and more importantly it reduced the stress of feeling people people people feel like they didn't know what was going on.

And then the leader had to make him interesting and I think you're a galvanizer sure come on everybody.

There are certain people that are like okay or is the minute and we're going to go through the first thing and everybody's like no nobody loves that.

So find a person that likes to galvanize and get people rolling and help them let them help with the meeting. Yeah, I'd love to follow up with you on that.

“So in terms of having fun meetings like what have you seen work the best to make meetings like do you think like every meeting should have a presentation that goes along with it?”

Or yes, what's some good ways to have a fun meeting? I love this it's going to come right full circle to something else. You don't make it a good movie. I was a screenwriter and I still do love to write to screenplace. The essence of every great movie story book TV show anything is conflict. And you know to go back to literature and class when we're it's man versus man or woman versus woman you know man versus nature.

Man versus himself there's a conflict where where there's some tension that needs to be resolved. And every one of your meetings by definition should involve tension like like I think we should start our meetings and go hey if we mail it in today or we're bored or we're checked out. We're probably going to make decisions that aren't very good. Our competitors will be really happy.

“Our employees are going to be really confused and we're going to feel bad two weeks from now and we have to live with that.”

So let's do this. Let's lean in for the next 45 minutes or two hours or 10 minutes and really pay attention because if we don't something really bad could happen. That alone to make people go. All right. Let's focus. We get to the means and how do we start the first 10 minutes okay. So let's go through the most boring things first. What's the schedule look like and people are just like oh no.

So get people hooked into the fact that what you're about to do is the most important part of your job.

And even to see you could say and I'm going to evaluate this team based on how we perform here we're not just trying to get time off the clock. And who's in charge of preparing for the meetings? Okay. That's a great question. The leader is is responsibility for making sure that happens. So they are accountable for making sure that happens. They can delegate something based on a person's stress skills they're working genius to say I want you to be responsible for this and you to be but they cannot. You can delegate that but you can't advocate it.

We can't say Susan's going to run our meetings. So Susan, what are we talking about? No, you're the leader. And as far as preparing goes, I'm actually believer in not over preparing but coming there and reviewing what's going on in the first 10 minutes.

“Like so where do we stand on our key things that we're working on and going around. So how do you think we're doing? How do you think we're doing?”

And then as a result of that first 10 or 50 which is really fun.

And then going, okay, what are the things that are red? What are things that are yellow? What are things that are green? We should talk about the red ones. So what people do during meetings they go around and they go, okay, marketing you have 15 minutes sales you have 15 minutes accounting you have 15 minutes operations. Well, maybe we should spend 45 minutes on sales because that's the big issue because we're not there to represent our department, we're there to run the company. Yeah. And so when it's too structured like everybody gets a certain amount of time and there's an agenda.

Half the time people don't know what the agenda should be till they get there and look at what's going on. And somebody goes, did you guys know about that fire that happened yesterday within the business and they're like no, we should probably address that today. So I think what we call it's creator real time agenda. And that gets people interested because they're actually trying to figure it out together rather than going and putting a piece of paper on the board or a slide up that says here's the agenda.

Which is, which is at best a guess at what we should talk about. Yeah, for us when we're doing, we're doing a weekly stand up. We have like a discussion item section. So as we go fast, everybody gets one minute to say what they're working on. We call that the lightning round. Yeah. And then we just do put a discussion item and focus on it. And it's good to give people a lightning, but it's one minute.

Yeah. That's called lightning round. I like that. Yeah. And then, and then you look at what's on the light, your what people said and everybody goes, oh wait, that thing. She said we should talk about that. As opposed to, oh no, are we going to have to spend time talking about the other nine things before we get to that? And are we going to have three minutes left to talk about that? So that's great. And I'm saying, it's can fashion time. I thought I had my money handled. I thought I had a good handle on everything going on, but I recently checked my bank statements. And there was subscriptions everywhere streaming apps, random charges, a few of them were building me for a long time. I didn't even know what they were.

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“Yeah fam, you know that moment when it's one PM and you realize the only thing you had all day is coffee and maybe a banana, well that used to be me for years.”

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It's been years since I talked about it all together. Yeah, I wanted to just, I felt like we didn't do an actual interview on all your different works, we thought it was on working genius, so I was excited about that. But bringing us to working genius. So as I was thinking about meetings, one of the things that stuck out to me was how all the different working genius types, so you've got six different working genius types are good for all different kinds of meetings, like brainstorming meetings. I love it.

For like inventors and wonders, but then the tactical meetings are better for tenacity, talk to us about working genius, the six types, and by now you guys should all know about working genius, because I've talked about it so much on the podcast, but in case they don't, what is working genius, and how does it tie together with the five dysfunctions of a team and death by meetings? Well, if this whole podcasting and idea empire doesn't work out for you, you'd be a great consultant, but you've got a lot of good stuff going on because you're asking great questions.

So, every meeting really does focus on different working geniuses. Like the quarterly off-site is a big part of W and I, and a little bit of D, my wife's a W I, I know a lot of C, and they love to step back and go, let's go. Let's go to that hotel in the mountains and sit there and go, "What should our business be?" I wonder if there's something else we could do. Where are we in the history of this industry, and there's a place for that, it's really important, but it's not at your weekly tactical art.

So, I'm an inventor discerner, you know what that means? Every meeting is a strategic conversation, but it's not appropriate. And so when we have our weekly meeting where we're just going through how things are going,

I have to kind of put that on hold and go more to GE&T.

And when I, and I used to do this all the time, we'd have a meeting about launching a product the next day, and I'd be like, "Hey, I have an idea," and they'd say, "No, this isn't an idea" meeting. Similarly, you'd have a brainstorming session like, "Hey, what are we going to do next year with this new product?" And you'd go to have a meeting, and the ET and the room would go, "I don't think we have the budget for that." It's like, "No, we're not trying to evaluate the realism of it, we're actually trying to throw things against the wall."

If we don't know what letters are at play, the people that are there don't know when they should lean into their natural letters, or maybe when they need to go, "Oh, I need to put it aside and be a little more intentional about being part of this kind of conversation." Yeah, as a leader, it's really helped me because I feel like I'm less chaotic and less organized and clear to my team. Right. Because I have a daily sales meeting, like my primary responsibility to this day is sales, so I have a daily sales meeting.

It's 30 minutes, it's really tactical. Just going through deals, asking me questions, and just really tactical. But sometimes I would have ideas, I'm an inventor, so I'd be like, "Oh, let's do this for a new campaign, the sales campaign." And the team would just go with it, "I'm going to see you, they're not going to debate me about it." Right.

But now I catch myself and I'm like, "Okay, I need to have invention meetings where we just talk about new ideas with the same team."

But it's just a different angle, it's not me going over deals. So that's been really helpful. I feel like my team feels like things are just more clear, more organized, and that it's not just like shooting at the hip all the time. Because we generally, we gravitate toward the things we do naturally. Yeah.

And it's great that you're naturally good at that, but it's good to hold that back until you're at the right forum for that. And you know, if that 30 minute meeting goes to 45 because of the deals, you're like fine. Yeah. Because we're engaged in the, it matters. It's not like when people go, "What we got out on time, we're efficient."

“No, you should be, your meeting should be as long as they're interesting passionate and they're getting things done.”

To be honest, sometimes it just runs as long as we need it. 40 minutes, 50 minutes, whatever it is. The only one, when executive teams get together in like once a day for, for five or 10 minutes. Just to go, "Okay, where is everybody today? What are you working on?" Administrative stuff. That's the only one where we go, "Try not to let that one bleed because then people are going to start not wanting to come."

But the other ones should be as long as we need to get things done. And you know what people that change the way they do meetings find going to meetings is actually the most fun thing they do. I mean, literally they're like, "Our meetings are actually, I look forward to them now because it's where we solve problems, eliminate obstacles and get stuff done." It goes from the worst thing to the best thing.

But you got to know what you're doing. And there's a very big difference between a tactical meeting and a strategic meeting. And a long term, I don't have W as a genius, which is the highest, the wonder one. So I'm like ready to solve a problem right away, and I need people with wonder to go. Me too.

Hey, maybe this isn't the right direction at all. But if they say that during the tactical meeting, I'm like, "No, no, not right now."

“Yeah. So I think it's really good to understand that different meetings correspond to different letters.”

That doesn't mean people get to opt out based on their letters. It means they arrive knowing what they're supposed to do. Yeah. So working genius is six different working types. Yep. Everybody has two working geniuses that they're really naturally good at.

And they're naturally good at it because it actually gives them joy and energy. That's the thing. It's not like I'm just good at it. It fires me up to get to do those things.

Yeah. So for example, mine is galvanizing an invention. I can do that all day, never get tired.

Exactly. And it just feels like a dream job, right? Then there's competencies. Everybody has two competencies. Which means it doesn't kill you to do them. You can sustain yourself as long as you're not doing them all the time.

And if your job involves some of that, that's fine. Mm-hmm. As long as you're getting into some of the things in your genius, too. So competencies are in the middle. Yeah.

So for me, I think it was discernment. And tenacity. Yes. I'm good at tenacity. I guess it should done.

Yes. But over time, it's not really what I want to do. Exactly.

“And you get it done because you know that's how to activate things.”

But like finishing things just to finish them doesn't necessarily float your boat. Yeah. There are people in the world who wake up every day and go, I want to finish things. Mm-hmm. And I love them because I have enough of it.

I need a lot of tenacity on my team.

These are so important because this is where you lose energy and joy.

“And most people aren't good at those things.”

And so if they have a job that's calling them to do the two activities that they frustrate them and drain them, that's a recipe for burnout. There are people whose wounds make them really good at the things that they hate because they're afraid to fail. And that's a real bad recipe because that means they're going to keep doing it. People are going to ask them to do more of it.

Yep. And yet they are going to get burned out. Not because they're working too hard. But they're doing the kind of work that drains and frustrates them. Yeah.

So burnout is really when you have misaligned work. It's not really about overworked too many hours. It's really about doing the wrong thing that you're not naturally wired to actually do, which is why working genius is so powerful. You know what's funny?

I'm 60 years old. I can't believe I'm saying that. I mean, not that I'm saying it out loud. I don't believe I'm 60, but one of the things we talked about is like in the new year, we tell everybody in our company spend more time in your area of genius.

My capacity for work isn't lower now as long as I'm doing the work that I'm naturally drawn to, which doesn't mean I don't have to do some of the other stuff. But like as I get older, maybe I get less energy. So I should do the things that feed me. Yeah, that's true.

When I was in my 20s, I had jobs where I was doing things I hated.

Which is never a good idea, but I could power through that.

Yeah, that makes sense. When you're young, find out the things that feed you, find out the things that drain you, and work as much as you can in the area of where you're. Yeah, well, I love the working genius assessment. I actually made my whole team take it.

Now it's part of our hiring process. That is a great idea. So we're buying credits for people and saying take this test before and Kate was just, you just met Kate on my business fronters. The other day she was like, oh, he's, she's, it's an ET, he's an ET.

And I'm like, oh, that's perfect for the role, right? So it's so helpful to know what people are naturally good at when you're looking at hiring. Do you know years ago, a guy came into our office and his team of lawyers, wonderful people. And he was the guy who argued the case to the Texas Supreme Court that made it illegal to use assessments in hiring. Because there was a time when people like, are they biased?

So they really, this, and so he was that guy and we did work in genius with his team. And then we went around and gave people feedback based on, he was like, oh, wow, this works. This, all the feedback he was like, this is really mirroring the things that I get from them.

“And the key to using it for hiring is to know that nobody wants to get hired in a job they're going to hate.”

Yeah.

So when you sit down, the first thing is I hired an assistant eight months ago.

And I said, I need somebody with discernment. So she's going to see me and know what I need. I can't, I don't just tell her, and it would be great if she had tenacity and finished things. It would be great if she had enablement too, which means she's really supportive. She doesn't have that one at all.

And so you know what I could do is I get hired and say, you're going to be great at the things I need. But there's one thing I need that you're not good at. I'm not going to punish you for that. I'm going to adjust my expectations and that she's doing great. And I'm not disappointed because I know what I was getting.

Yeah, that makes so much sense. Whereas before, I would be, why don't you do this? And it's like, I look at her working. She's because God didn't make her that way. And so to know what a person is, that's a great act of love.

You see them for who they are and put them in a position on the bus. Give them the seat on the bus where they're going to be best. Yeah. So to me, this is like an assessment that allows you to avoid them being miserable. And you having to reject them for reasons that aren't a flaw.

It's just who they are. And one of the best things about it is that it's so affordable. Like, you made it in a way. I remember taking other assessments. They're like $250 or something or at least $60 a seat.

Yeah. Working geniuses is like 18, yeah, 20 bucks. 18 bucks with code profiting. If you guys want to use it, work in genius.com/propheting. And you get 20% off.

It's less than 20 bucks. And when I did this, I had friends go pat.

“You should charge to a lot more than 20 bucks.”

I love it. And we said, but this is a mission. And remember, we go back to my dad. And I was like, one of our strategic anchors is mission over money. And that is, we want somebody to go.

I have three kids. We have a student version for high school and college students. We don't want them to go. Oh, how much does this cost? We don't want somebody who's who's company doesn't have a lot of money to think.

Oh, we can't afford this. And so we gave off some of the profits.

But it ultimately comes around to benefit people.

One of the things we're doing is we're creating a movement of people in the world who are using this in their own work. Yeah. So we've had over 5,000 people get certified. We do a certification program for people. And in two days on a Zoom call, they learn all about it.

And then they go out and use it in their own practice. So we've decided, let's make it affordable.

And that's good for everybody.

We will do fine. But more importantly, it's going to change the world. Because when we started, we said, we want work to be fulfilling. And anything that prevents people from experiencing that is nothing. Well, it just makes it a no-brainer.

Yes. It makes it no-brainer. Like my whole team's taking it. My charity project that I have that has like 12 people in it. I'm making them take it.

Right. It just makes it a no-brainer to use it. Yeah. So I love it. We are so glad that more people.

“I think this year we'll get at least 2 million people to have used it in just a few years.”

Yeah. It's incredible. So great job working on that. Thank you. Okay.

So my last couple questions to you. What is one truth about entrepreneurship that most people learn far too late? Oh. Okay. I think I have two answers to that.

Okay. The good one is there's a lot of people that don't do it because it seems scary. I grew up not with a family profile of entrepreneurship. My dad had one job essentially my whole childhood. And it was about we were relatively poor.

And so he was it was like get benefits stability matters. And that was his Myers-Briggs and working genius and all that stuff.

And so I never thought I would should do this.

When I went out and did my own thing. And by the way, people say, how do I do what you do? And it's like, oh, the first thing we did we enjoyed. If we had just been this little consulting firm regionally working with small companies in our area, we would have loved that.

But being in charge of yourself and having a little bit more responsibility and risk, but actually being in control of that is wonderful. So there's a lot of people who don't become an entrepreneur because they think it's too crazy. And actually there's it's to me it's more peaceful. Then when I worked in a big company, I was dependent on a bunch of people doing things that I didn't even know.

And I would go, oh God help us make our revenue. I don't even know how to help. So I like being an entrepreneur. So for some people, they need to learn that earlier in life. The other thing is know that there is a certain amount of loneliness that goes in of not having a boss.

Because a lot of people start their own business and they go, oh yeah, where's that person that I'm supposed to go to and say, did I do a good job today? Oh, that's me. And so there is this sense we get used to. We like having coaches and tutors and mentors and parents and teachers.

And then you get to a place where it's you.

“And that that's why it's good to have consultants and mentors that can help you in relationships.”

Because sometimes it's late in life and you go, gosh, I've been carrying this by myself for too long. So that's what I would say know that it can be lonely do stuff about that. But no, the risk of it is not as bad as people think it is because there's something about saying, I can work harder to affect the outcome and I like that. So those would be the two things about entrepreneurs.

I love it. This is going to be an awesome question. I think moving forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. One actionable thing are young and profitors can do today to become more profitable tomorrow.

One actionable thing. You know, I just think it's so interesting. I mean, there's this. I can think of many things, but I am surprised at how people that aren't too close to your business. Well, I've insights that you can't see.

And I know that as a consultant over the years whenever I worked with CEOs,

I was never an expert in their business.

And that was a benefit. And I was willing to ask dumb questions. And I'd go and go, have you guys thought about this? And probably if I did it 10 times, four of them were dumb because they didn't know the business. Four of them were like, yeah, we thought about that.

And two of them they were like, we didn't. They would look at each other and go, how come we didn't think about that? And the answer was because they're too close to it. So what I would say is look for advice and answers and solutions outside of the knowledge base within your own organization. Go to people that do other things, tell them enough about your business and say, what would you do?

And for every 10 answers, there's going to be two that it's going to be like, we would have never thought of that. Had we not asked the baker down the street or the doctor, how to run this business? And four are going to be dumb, four are going to be like, yeah, we thought of that. But look for answers outside of your normal domain. Yeah, because there's something about having that naive insight that can really.

And they're usually pretty like fundamental changes.

“Yeah, I think it's really important for entrepreneurs to be in other entrepreneurship groups.”

Yes, and not in the same industry. Mm-hmm. I've learned so much from people in different businesses. Yeah, so interesting. Okay, last one, what is your secret to profiting in life and this can go beyond financial and business?

For me, and I was going through this today talking to a counselor. It's sitting in silence with God and knowing that I am loved. Mm-hmm. And it's taken me many years to understand this, because sometimes my wounds have been superpowers. The things that were hard for me, I thought, oh, look at me.

I'm wounded by this. I'm going to try harder than everybody else, and in the place I am right now.

I've really leaned into thinking, I don't have to prove myself all the time.

I used to always think it's never enough.

And when you start with this place of like, God loves me and he made me to do this. Then I don't feel like I'm coming from a place of fear, but a place of joy. So, profiting is working from a place of joy and excitement, not from fear and worry. Yeah. So that would be mine.

I feel like you talk a lot about wounds lately. Yeah. Talk to us about what we need to look out for or how wounds show up in business and, you know, just some of your new thoughts around wounds. So many successful business people.

So many of the CEOs I worked with, so many. Our successful and part of it is because they have this desire to succeed and a fear of failure. And over time, they start to realize, like, I was just talking, okay, maybe it's never going to be enough. Am I ever going to get to that place where it's enough? And athletes are like this and stars or celebrities are like this.

What propels them to be the goat is that they're never enough. They never stop. And so what I've tried to help them with is to realize,

“your success is not predicated on being afraid of failing.”

It's coming to terms with the fact that you want to have peace. And so address those wounds. They're not your superpower. Your superpower is your ability that you, the God-given talents you have. And you don't need that running away from failure to do that.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is a lot of successful people.

Secretly when I talk to them feel like it's never going to be enough.

And I'm terrified of failure. Many of them will say, every time I succeed, it's more of a relief that I didn't fail as opposed to the joy that something worked out. So I just am surprised at how many leaders,

and I went through that myself, are operating from that place that my wounds are my superpower. And you can be successful and have more peace and success when you get over that. Yeah, so good. We're working everybody learn more about you and everything that you do,

where do you want to point people to? Well, I think this podcast is probably the place to start. This was fantastic. Thank you. Really holistic.

I love it. But the table group is my company. Tablegroup.com.

“We love what we do for our clients and wonderful people there.”

And then working genius is its own thing, although it's part of the table group. And working genius.com is where you can go by the assessments and learn more about working genius. And then I guess there's stuff on YouTube,

if you just Google my stuff and they're Instagram. And you have podcasts too. Yes, I have a podcast called At the Table. And then we do have a working genius podcast, where we all we do is for people that love to nerd out around working genius.

And it's really grown because there's a lot of people that love to talk about it. So we alternate it once a week on each at the table, which is more about just business in the world of work. And then working genius, so it's just going deep into that. Amazing.

So we'll stick all those links in the show notes.

Pat, it is always such a pleasure.

You are so great. Thank you. It is my pleasure. Thank you. Yeah, then Patrick just handed us the operating system

for a team that actually wins. No more excuses for running a dysfunctional team. So here's what I want you to take back to your business starting today. Healthy teams beat smart teams every time. If your people are smiling in meetings but venting in private,

that's artificial harmony. And it's quietly killing your execution. Breat leaders make it safe to disagree out loud, debated out openly, and still leave room for the aligned. Next, fix your meetings.

Most meetings fail because we mix everything together. Brain-storming strategy updates decision becomes meeting soup. Patrick's solution is simple. Run quickly check-ins for alignment. Hold weekly tactical meetings to solve immediate problems.

And schedule a separate strategic sessions for the big complex conversations. When everybody knows the purpose of the meeting, people show up focused and decisions actually get made. And don't sleep on working genius. When you put people on roles that energize them,

they don't just perform better. They start burning out.

“That's how you create a team that people actually want to be a part of.”

Now, go build something worth being proud of. All right, Yang and Profiters, as always, thank you for showing up and investing in yourself by tuning into this conversation today. It's this episode, "Hey at home, share it with a leader

or entrepreneur who needs to hear it." And if you're loving this show, drop us a five-star review on Apple Spotify Castbox wherever you listen to the show. It means the world to me.

And every single one of you who have taken time to leave a review are the heartbeat of this community and the reason that we keep going. And by the way, we're bringing so much more in-person content, just like this conversation with Patrick. So, if you're not yet subscribed to YouTube,

just searching and profiting. Find us on YouTube. We can also find us on Spotify video. You can also find me hanging out on Instagram at YAP with Hala or LinkedIn by searching my name, Hala Taha.

Until next time, this is your host, Hala Taha, aka the podcast princess signing off.