Critical Darlings: Sentimental Value and Belated Oscar Breakthroughs with Joe Reid

Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the award season conversation.

One contender at a time. [MUSIC] Please welcome to the stage, your hosts, Richard Lawson, and Allison Wilmore. [APPLAUSE] Marie is thank you as ever for your spirit introduction.

We are once again joined with Producer Ben, hello Ben. Hello. And we have a special guest from Vulture, Allison's co-worker. And the host of this had Oscar Buzz, the podcast, Joe Reed, hello. Hi, thank you for having me.

Well, we're glad we, you could make it. Me too, especially 'cause you're in a really busy time if you're working life right now. Yes, people don't know every year, Joe does a ranking of every film. You've short or feature, right?

“I've nominated for an Oscar, so you have to watch a ton of shit.”

If you have a mate share deliberately, sometimes there's bad stuff. Uh-huh, live action short has not covered itself in glory for many, many years. They feel like this no, is it any better this year? No, it's, I was saying to Allison earlier, there are fewer things that feel like absolutely terrible and awful.

You know, there's usually some like incredibly, treatably like animated short or whatever, or like a live action short, you're like, right. And it inevitably wins. There's none of those, but there's also none of like the one or two that are like, oh, this is really great, right.

There's one animated short called butterfly that I think looks incredibly beautiful. It's, and they like painted on glass to like do the animation. And I'm like, this is really, but what animated short tends to for me is like, it really, it highlights how Sammy animated feature tends to be every year, where it's just like, even when there's like, like,

Arco looks differently different than Zutopia II or whatever, but then you look at the animated shorts and it's like, oh, there are so many different ways to do animation. Yeah, but at the same time, also whenever I watch the animated shorts,

I'm always like, oh, you thought so much about like the technique

and visuals you were going to bring to the-- Oh, and like, not about the content or structure at all.

“A lot of time, so it's like, yeah, students, you know, right?”

Oh, yeah. And you're like, why you did this incredible job of like using, yeah, like, a lot of color technique for this or something I've never seen anything like that. Yes, but it's Sally, it's just to get a job at Pixar or-- Right, no, right, yeah, I should put it on here.

Or you have, yeah, you just have national funding to support you when doing this kind of-- Like, the National Board of Canada comes to the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all the time, those shorts-- Or the Estonian one flow, that one at the Oscars--

You know, and I think it's exciting to see flow, which also looks different. Yes, spider-verses. So you're watching all the nominated films, but your podcast has had Oscar Buzz as the title suggests is about movies that people thought might get awards,

yes, didn't end up getting them, or even the nominations. It's a tricky way to make me have to watch all the movies, because it's just exactly the same, you know? I get them coming in, and I'm getting them coming out. So do you have, like, off the top of your head, like, a couple of, like,

the biggest 20, 25 movies that had Oscar Buzz that failed to materialize? It's more so than I would have expected, because this was such a-- and you guys, I'm sure, have talked about this before. Like, it's such a top-heavy year in terms of nominations. All the nominations are really concentrated in those, like,

best picture ones, so, like, things that, like, Jay Kelly, that, like, even when Jay Kelly disappointed-- I don't-- I don't think that's a real movie, though. Well, no, I mean, I mean-- But that idea, I mean, Jay Kelly, sure, have Oscar Buzz, yeah.

I mean, the fact that Wicked for Good didn't get any nominations was, like, I got so many messages that day being like, for me, for Good, for me included. Yes, they, like, I can't believe you can cover Wicked for Good on your podcast, that's crazy.

Yeah, yeah, things like-- I mean, stuff that died in festival season, like, rental family,

“stuff that I think people were maybe hoping”

might get a craft nomination, like, testament of envy. So the nice thing about doing our podcast is, sometimes we're talking about a movie that we really liked, and we wish had gotten Oscar nominations, but it didn't happen. And then the other side of it is movies that turned out to be really bad,

and everybody sort of got-- they got kind of found out before the Oscars. Yeah, it's-- I think it's almost like an even split. It is, yes. Stuff that you're like, oh, man, that would have been so cool. If that had actually gotten over the finish line, yeah,

other stuff, and you're, like, good rental family. I'm so excited to do our episode on LMK. We usually tend to let these movies tend to weigh the year before we get into them, to give us a little bit of distance. What movie is Elega gonna talk about when she is on the show?

Of the documentary that they made about her life?

Oh, and being the first person to become the governor of the state

that they were born and raised. Right, did that state have the blizzard? I don't-- we don't know. The climate is all over the place. Yeah.

Well, yeah, people can listen to that. We are here to talk about sentimental value this week. Yes, before them, I did want to pick up a thread from last episode. Oh, please.

Talked about the secret agent. And we were mourning the fact that Tanya Maria, the incredible actor-- Oh, don't a Sebastian. Sebastian and someone who is not, like, a really professional actor,

who's kind of like, in Filio's films,

But what she did get is a series of Burger King ads. That's right. So yeah, in which she is touting, I guess, a meal that offers two hamburgers, a side and a drink for a 2590s. Oh.

The where's the beef lady could map out exactly? Yeah, so you can find those online. She's wearing the Burger King.

Burger King hat that was always just sitting on a bed

and munching in this very relatable way. Yeah, she for years was inside the Burger King costume. Yeah, they had her in person. And now she gets to show her. Yeah, she's her.

Yeah, her cadence is very similar in the ads. Yeah, she's sort of like shouting almost. [LAUGHTER] [SINGING] And she says, like, athletes and amy.

“I think you can practically see the cigarette smoke”

from the, look at the astray, like, right off camera. Right off camera. Yeah. [SINGING] No, good for her.

I mean, I wish that we would do that with like our, you know, elder discoveries, you know, in this country. Oh, maybe, I guess we have in the past, maybe. But we're as you can see, we should be doing-- But she's like getting--

But she's like getting-- Yeah, that's true. Yeah, she's not in blacking work. She was just on Broadway. Yeah.

Going close for Wendy's. [LAUGHTER] It's come to this. Yeah, I mean, you know, maybe this time to bring back the where's the beef campaign? We've completely lost the taboo of actors doing ads anyway, if you

watch the people bowl, like it's just like--

No, we'll always find a vet.

So you know what? Have them do silly funny ones. No, I'm just going to say, time to bring back that taboo. Bring back many more tabs, and that's one of them. You want to preserve your movie star gleam?

Yeah. You got, you got to choose here about the, you know, I know. We all have to make money. We all have to pay rent and/or purchase a nice house on the hills. Yeah.

Back to the area of Bill Murray doing Centauri times. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know. I knew it in America.

Well, that's the thing. It's like you used to be able to kind of go to Europe, or go to Japan, and see what people would know. Yeah, a low-key movie that like the kids would not understand that.

“Because they're like, why doesn't you just do ads in the end?”

It's a Ryzen Shin influencer, you know? Yeah. But it's also it's sucking up the work that like the snap-a-lady used to get, and the where's the beef lady used to get, that the guy who talked fast for micro machines, the dancing person for people.

I saw some of the actors recently, actually, the micro machines guy, because they had him come out and to read the like, the used to have somebody come out before they realized that the Oscars had to be as short as possible. They used to have somebody come out and read the rules

about like how movies are submitted to the Academy, and who votes for what, and what committees, and whatever. And so they have the micro machines guy come out and like, motor mouth his way through through the rules. Yeah, that's nice.

I mean, would you say that the micro machines guy has some sentimental value? Oh, perhaps for those of us who were there at the time. Yeah, I don't know. I love them. Yeah.

So yeah, we're talking about Yoakim Trees, sentimental value, a film that we've all seen. And I think all liked. Yeah, am I right? Yeah, okay.

And I had seen it, it can and liked it, but I was like, so raring to go, because of I loved worse versus so much,

“that I think that sentimental value on that first,”

who is a little bit of a calm down. But on this second viewing, maybe it's because I had been like a loan for days, like it really affected me in a really strong way. So I think Allison, you and I were talking about like how part of this podcast where we were rewatching Oscar movies,

which I don't always do every year.

It's nice because I now have a deeper appreciation for this film than I did before. That said, I really wish that the attention that this has gotten at the Oscars was what worse person had gotten. Yeah, but sometimes that's just not how the Academy works.

Yeah, it's funny how often I mean, at least anecdotally. And maybe we can come up with actual examples of this. It does feel like it is not someone's like incredible breakthrough that is the film that gets rewarded. It's like then afterwards they're like, oh,

we like this person. Yeah, and then it's like maybe a slightly lesser film. And I do feel like sentimental value is I do not like it as much as worse person in the world. I do like it, but it just doesn't have that same exciting

verb in the way that like, well, I don't know. His other films, some of which deal with some kind of, you know, like deal with depression, deal with suicidal ideation, they have this kind of French new way of the energy, the kind of like propulsion and like youthfulness.

Yeah. And this film is a more grown-up film. It is as rooted in this kind of aging filmmaker, you know, father figure who is trying to reconnect with his children as it is in these daughters, both of whom are adults. Uh, one for the boomers a little bit, a little bit,

at least at least partial. I think so. Yeah, like it is, yeah, it, I mean, it's been, it's about people who own real estate. So that's not for, right, that's not a lot of people. Yeah, exactly.

Generational. Generational real estate, yeah. So also at enormous pain point for them and, uh, and, uh, carry some significant financial stakes as well.

I mean, there is that part halfway through or so, where there's that kind of face montage, where their faces keep changing, that you're like, "Okay, this is more experimental in the vein of something for more person would be." But, you know, it's a sturdy family drama.

“And I, I think it's just, it's less exciting.”

Yeah. And I think that I would say the same about other filmmakers who have made good work with the Academy has either ignored entirely or like given a courtesy, not, not sure, and there too. And then, they're more conventional film as the one that breaks through. David, what is episode? Don't act so surprised because it's a familiar

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movie.com/bunchek. That's mubii.com/bunchek for a moment. The great cinema for free. And then go see my father, Shadow, and theaters. Please. Thank you for listening. Thank you. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Thank you very kind. So obviously, there is the like, the Yorgosi thing of like,

then picking up on this movie because it's after the breakthrough.

But could it also be something to do with the fact that this is about Hollywood? Or not Hollywood, but this is about filmmaking and acting in the, you know, how hard it is. Sure. Yeah, we're just about the business. Very honest.

“Yeah. I mean, I think it is right. It has been long accepted.”

If not necessarily supported in terms of the numbers that Hollywood loves to award or like, loves movies about itself, right? Yeah. And like, certainly there have been some very high profile movies that have gotten sluded. But like Ben Zousmer, who wrote this book called Oscar Matrix, did a piece in the New York Times in 2020. And because kind of

running the numbers about like, if you like, depending on how broadly you define right where you're like, is marriage story a movie that involves an actor, but it's not about, right? Like, is not necessarily about business, which is right in after exactly. And I feel like, even counting those, he kind of arrived at this that like, no, we're not more inclined. Like, the Oscars are not more inclined to give

out towards like, um, and like, of all of the kind of like, best picture winner. I mean, like, it's because I think we think about this because, um, the artist and then Argo. Oh, I, yes. Yes. Right. Yeah. It was those two years where it was like, wait a second. Yes. There seems to be a secret formula to getting this Oscar attention. That maybe actually isn't. I mean, because if it was, then Babylon would have like 12x4. Right. But the

stablements is another one that I remember. Like, going that is like, what is Spielberg have to do to win another Oscar? It's like, oh, be sentimental. And to make a movie about movies. And it's like, well, you did it. What else do you want? And people were like, yeah, well, so

Pointed out even then that like, even though that statistically, these movies are not more inclined, uh, more recently Hollywood has been more inclined to be interested in them in terms of

awards. So like, yeah, um, you know, like, I mean, famously singing the rain never up for a

best picture. Right. Um, right. But like, uh, yeah, like, it was the 2022, which was the the, the Oscars in 2023. Um, the Oscars that went like overwhelmingly too. Everything everywhere. All ones. Yes. But that was the year of Babylon. Empire of light. The fablements. Blonde. You know, yep. I love loving tribute to all the way. Yeah. I mean, or, um, I mentioned like the, the India submission that year was last film show. Um, nope. It came out that year. Did not get Oscars.

But the bow was about. Yeah. Partly now. Even like, uh, Penai's film No Bear was about. Right. He was about him making a film. Right. Um, but yeah, like, I, I, those, those, like, when you read those, you're like, those are not the films that like went and like dominated that year. Right. There is a little bit of everything everywhere that has a little bit to do with, like, she, you know, one of her, a person, as she's a, she's a actress and like, recreate the references

her in the mood for love and that kind of stuff. Yeah. I mean, like, the, the kind of martial arts you

could say, or existing, then her own personal film history. And I always think about a movie, like,

the shape of water. And the fact that that movie, I was always so impressed with the way that that movie was able to that year capture the, oh, we remember when Hollywood was, you know, old Hollywood, whatever, without because that was the year of B2 was happening. Like, did that without actually making a movie about a filmmaker or the studio system, or anything like that? And that was a movie that felt like it was a movie about movies without actually ever being about that. Beyond the

fact that like, they, she lives above a theater. Right. But the fish monster, monster did represent CIA. Oh, so, yes, there was some sort of very real winning. Yeah. I mean, a lot of that kind of

“hangeringy pieces that I, I found that were about this topic were from 2020. Do you know why?”

There was one thing. Yeah, make all this, Mr. May. May, which did seem like kind of created. Yes, to be like a movie that we all talk about all the time with a normal man. I did not love it. But it was like, it was almost like a joke about it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, the thing about like, maybe I'm wrong, but do authors like of books get shit for writing about writers. It's like, well, wouldn't filmmaker sometimes make something kind of out of it. You're out of 10 Stephen King

books are about a writing. But that said, I do feel like I personally complain about how many novels are set like on college campuses. Oh, maybe a Jason. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was cheating on their works. Yeah, it was something. Maybe like maybe some adjunct to is a novelist on this, but you know, you're like, yeah, what are you drawing from here? Yeah. So, yeah, sure. I mean, I, I don't mind movies about movies. I think as long as they're not, I think the thing that made it's America's sweetheart.

Or that obviously that's the principle. Right. Yeah. The form. I mean, the thing about like that 2022 year is like, what was saying that was not just how many movies were about movies, but how many movies were about like these kind of incredibly bittersweet, but like glassy eyes. Like, oh,

“just cinematic experience. Like, I think I wrote about it that year. Multiple of those movies”

started with someone explaining like 24 frames per second and like how that like brain. Like, I remember that multiple movies that year included someone giving the explanation for how, you know, we process that into the illusion of, yeah, I mean, I will defend Empire of Light. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, and that got one single solitary awesome. For what? For cinematography. Well, it's beautiful. Yeah.

Should have been score too. I was always a little bit annoyed that nope wasn't able to,

because my thing with craft categories is always like, if you make a movie about a fashion designer, you are probably going to get a costume nomination. You know what I mean? Sure. And I always was like, nope has a cinematographer as a character. Like, well, so they got to do. I have bad news for Angelina's Julius Couture. Yeah. I don't, I don't think that's getting in there. I was like, not a movie. But I would really not. Yeah. But yeah, I know how many movies have not just like a cinematographer

character. Well, who comes on board with their like personal made like crank camera to explain like integral to the plot. Yeah. Or that way. Can we do an experiment and we'll pull our resources and make a movie about like a sound. Sounds like that. Yeah. Exactly. We can sweep those categories. Yeah. I know. We can do it. We can do it. It calls like underwater or something. And they're like, they're an expert in like underwater. Yeah. There's the podcast movie. There is also right there is a

horror movie about a sound guy from not looking up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The podcast movie I did see it's

“on the answer as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also, I think I might have said this on when I was back from”

Sundance. But it imagines podcasting as something you do it two in the morning for five minutes. No. But that's not the podcast horror movie because there is also a horror movie coming out about like essentially it seems like it's a haunted podcast. I'm not even making it. Well,

of your time out. Yeah. And it's very bad. Okay. But um, it's basically just like what if hereditary

“had a podcast element? I didn't know. That was a Sundance. Oh, okay. Yeah. But anyway. So I think that the”

the podcast movie is still, we could still make it. Yeah. For Barry and sound studio. Oh, of course. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Anyway. Yes. What about a movie about a dedicated animated short film maker? How would that have that? What if it's about getting a film board of Canada funding? Oh, Mike. Honestly. Yeah. Where are these subject for? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So in in in in in in in in triggers case, maybe it was the sort of filmmaking aspect that helped him. I mean, he looked

worse person got an expected international feature nomination, but a kind of more surprised screenplay nomination which was pretty exciting. Yeah. People I thought are hoped that maybe we're not a Ryan's photo, who also started in that film would get in, but she didn't. Yeah. But like there, I feel like there are other examples of this. Like why did Sean Baker after years of kind of not even, I don't think he was knocking at the door. I think we're knocking at the door for him.

Yes. And then they were like, okay. Well, him to foe is good in the Florida project. Yeah. And that was the low nomination for that movie. And then all of a sudden it nor like crashes through the side of the wall. You know, like the buildings. Yeah. Why did that happen with an

“horror? I believe I was on a podcast with you where I made the prediction that Simon Rax was”

going to get an nomination for Red Rocket. I mean, we're incredible in that movie. I think so too.

But after that movie really sort of got passed over, I remember being like even more sort of pessimistic about it. Like once in a world one, the palm, I think that made it something that you have to really pay attention to. Yeah. And it's sort of like demanded attention for itself. But I that's still is it kind of runs counter to my sort of grand theory about this kind of thing, whereas, you know, these atores will have an early movie that is obviously very specific,

esoteric, challenging, edgy, the kind of thing that you're really only going to get like small financing for pie from Darren Ernawski or like citizen Ruth from Alexander Pain or something like that. And then as they sort of move up, they get more funding. There are more people who's opinions. They have to listen to. They get bigger stars. You get a boucht Schmidt for, you know, a knicklson. And I think then sort of inevitably, I think also there is an element of just awareness builds. You know,

they mean more people know who you are. And I think so much of the Oscar race ends up being like

“familiarity. You have to be somebody who these voters already know about or else there's not”

kind of war someone who hits that new factor exactly right. Yes, you know, which is really hard to nail

that. I'm actually not a lot being an example. Sure. And I'm not in his first movie, but like it was

early enough that they really like got him on the up. And I would say the Daniels to an extent, yeah, like they had a lot of stuff. Yeah, well, like Swiss are not meant to have that right, but he was brand new to the, yeah, well, I mean, you know, but it's interesting to look at someone like David Fincher, say, you know, and you're like, he's made these movies like Fight Club, like that feels like it has a larger cultural footprint. I, you know, but like was not like a kind

of like, a Oscar favorite by any. And I imagine there were a ton of Oscar voters that year who just didn't watch it because they didn't want to watch a movie called Fight Club that all the reviews looked like was, you know, bloody and ugly and they didn't want to subject them. Yeah, and then he did Zodiac, which is a movie that you would think with that. And if that came out now, it would get like 12 nominations. Yeah, because he wasn't, yeah, he wasn't in the club yet. That's there's

enough, that's the other thing. And there was more to choose from back then from an academy perspective, maybe where they were like, that's right. Robas movie, but like we don't need it. We have right. And to then instead, of course, they do give him nominations for the movie he makes the next year, the curious case of Benjamin Button, which like, you know, I will defend that movie, but like it is it is almost shocking for someone where Fincher was at that point in his career. You're like,

whoa, you, this is a, this is a real right turn. Like it's into really like Oscar-friendly territory in a way that I did not think. And, you know, look, if there was a movie, if the movie Jay Kelly had been made and come out. It's just like, you know, like a theorized, you know, you would look at a filmmaker like, no, a bomb-back and be like, how did the guy who made the fucking squid in the whale get to this point? Right. Whereas marriage story exists on this sort of crux. We're like, it has

that bomb-back edge, but it's just nice enough. And then he tips way too far toward the Oscar-friendly direction where it's been, you know, kind of pulled back almost immediately. He was, yeah, he doesn't also ever seem like someone who, I mean, a, a side from Benjamin Button. He's not someone who feels like their chase and then make, of course, the greatest film he's ever made. But that was like first dad, like, you know, but I mean, his also a movie that features, like, tiny old man Brad Pitt,

you know what I mean? Like, it is, it's one of those movies that when you watch it, you understand the, like, the classic elements to it. But it's also one of the things, like, if I describe

a little shape of water, ask actually, where it's just like, on paper, this is bizarre, but then you want to go back to Julia Ormond and a hospital room. Right. By the way, if I club did get one Oscar nominee for our favorite category. Sounds good for like one craft nomination for like,

“I think seven got one craft nomination and I probably are direction or something. Like, Elyian”

three got a visual effect, sound something like that nomination. So two part question one, how much of these sort of ketchup nominations do you think are attributed to people feeling like the, they got snubbed for their last movie? And I guess how do these movies get snubbed in the first place? Are the people just not watching them? I don't know. Do voters actually watch all the movies? Well, well, no, but it's also like, I don't know, like, like you look at like Chloe Joe, right?

Like, the writer was never going to get a best picture nomination. No stars, but it's her best

well. It's her best film today. Like, it's like a sad, dead eternal. Yeah, that's true. The short of eternal, so of course, the greatest film she's ever made. Yeah, but you have, you know, like that film where yet there's no stars. It's all, um, you know, like people who are not professional actors, um, and it was like this small film. And that would like lived on the festival circuit and then the art house circuit. You know, it's not even

that these movies are getting snubbed. They just never entered into the conversation to begin with.

“Right. But I think the people who do see them are like, well, this is someone to pay attention to.”

And then I think a few years later, then you've had enough people tell you, did you see that movie the writer from last year? It was really good. And this, it snowballs a little

bit, the, the attention snowballs and the prestige snowballs. And more and more people want to

see me in the know because like, you know, yeah, I'm not, I'm not saying that I am just like, so super, you know, super naturally aware of all filmmakers in any stage of their career. But having met a lot of these people at like, let's say out now, like, who are a bit older than me, sort of like mid to late career, they are shockingly incurious about like the world of film. Yeah. You know, they know who they know. They like what they like. And once in a while, they will

pat themselves on the back for quote unquote discovering someone. Yeah. And I think that they, like, they know Madland are like, well, look, I mean, I found this great new. And it's like, well, but she did have this other movie that is kind of why you know about her. But you don't know

“that that's why you know it. Well, and this is why something like the golden globes,”

which on its face mean nothing of value because the people who vote for it have no place within like the like Hollywood, like the industry. But in attention economy terms, it's incredibly valuable because if you are making somebody with us, you know, you used to say a stack of screeners. Now, it's, you know, an inbox full of screeners, whatever. Give their attention enough to watch your movie.

That's the sometimes the best you can do. Yeah. Yeah. The problem that I have with this, it's not always,

but sometimes is that the film that finally gets this filmmaker that kind of awards attention, which is not, you know, necessary to their career, but it helps. It's often, I think, like, a lesser effort. Yeah. You know, not always like, I think that like, one example we talked about before we recorded was like, I mean, I love Boogie Nights, which was PTA's second film. Yes. And that did get Oscar attention for sure, but in that limited sort of like, we're not going to get your best

picture. Right exactly. And then it would took like a big American epic to, and they're probably blood a couple years later. It's like, or actually almost a decade later. Yeah. Yeah. And I, that's, that's an incredible movie, but like, I don't like it as fun as I like Boogie Nights, but I don't know. I think also like, like, a lot of these homes, they, they feel edgeier. They feel more disreputable in terms of like what they, they do or what they're like, they're tone and so like,

I mean, the Oscars now feel more open to things like that, but I feel like, I'm not even that long ago, yeah, you would do like Danny Boyle, you know, where you're like, what does it Danny Boyle film that gets in? And it's not the films that we think of. Right. These like, enormously influential fellow graves. Not happening. Yeah. Right. That is, I'm not familiar. Right. Like, um, yeah, there is. I don't know what you're talking about. Um, but yeah, there's a kid in poop.

But yeah, you know, it's like, when someone then shapes up and makes a movie that feels yeah, Oscary oftentimes. They put a suit on. Yeah. Right. Right. They, they shaped, you know, they, they come there and here they are presenting themselves to their peers. And sometimes there's an degree degree of like meeting in the middle. I feel like the co-in brothers had a little bit of that. We're like, Fargo sort of met the Oscar voters halfway. It was still really

idiosyncratic. The comedy was very sort of particular, but in a post-pulp fiction kind of a world, the academy was moving towards stuff. But it wasn't so, it wasn't the HUD soccer proxy. Right. It wasn't like the kind of co-in's movie that people are like, I don't know what they're doing with this thing. Yeah. So, um, and then you get something like no country, which is them combining all like western tropes that they know and like, but also this co-in kind of edge and perspective. Yeah,

was like really took him, quote unquote, seriously as a best neurosurgeon. You know, snubbed for

Fellini back in uh, 75. Right. Yeah. And like, and you see like, you know, Martin Scorsese winning for the departed, which is a fun movie, but you could kind of feel that you're the academy being like, uh, so we just look back at the records. We probably should have given this to you. Yeah. Earlier, sorry about this. Uh, here you go. Here's also, while you're at it,

“here's best picture. Actors, I think, get the uh, oops, we're sorry about that award, much more”

often than directors. I think, um, with directors, it's a little bit more complicated than that. There are more sort of elements at play. But yeah, it definitely does happen. Although Scorsese

had like multiple years of like, while they're going to give it to him for games in New York,

because they didn't give it to him for Asian bull and like that didn't happen. And then the next I was like, but the aviator, it's so much up there, Ali. And that they didn't for that kind of about Hollywood and part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. David. Yep. You don't have a lot of shared interests, sure. Common interest film. The movies, comedy, podcasts, life, New York City, Bagels, Sandwiches. These are all true. Sleep.

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4. 25% off mattresses plus an extra $50 off support our show. I don't know. We sent you after check out that's Lisa dot com promo code blank check. And David, just because we invoked president's day in this ad read, I do think we need to show our support for our president. Rulk Thunderbolt Ross the Red Hulk is he in prison? Yes. Is he no longer the president? Maybe in letter of the law, but not spirit. But here's the good news. While stuck on the raft, Marvel's

high-tech sea jail. Yes. He's sleeping on a Lisa. Sure. A mattress fit for a roll. I mean, with Trier, he's different, very different kind of filmmaker. He did not have a ton

and Oslo 31st August, that we're in the festival circuits in the late Otson early 2010s. And you know, the Manola d'Arguses of the world were like super onto him and into him, you know, I think that her lovely long quote is at the top of the Repree's like DVD or poster or something. And then he took this weird detour where he made a movie called Laude. He went English language,

which is something that you always, you know, is always risky for a non-American or non-English

language director to do like, okay, I'm going to cast stars now. I mean, one of them is a Bellu pair of who's not in a native English speaker. But that movie with it's her, I think Gabriel Bern, Jessica Eisenberg. That is a stinker. It is bad. Yeah. That was one of those like, let, I mean,

“that legendarily. But like for me, that was at, I believe it was at Tiff that year. And I remember”

people being like, don't see that. Yeah, because it didn't premiere to can't. Yeah. And it was, and I saw it there because I, all admit, at the time I had not seen Repree's or also the first August. Yeah. But people like the absence of the world. Yeah. Oh, no, he's good. You should go see that. Yeah, I'm that new. And then, and then I was mad. It was like some more become levels of bad friends. Yeah.

And it was also like, you know, sometimes when you use something like that happens, you're like,

oh, was this like, it was like a work for hire or something like that, or is like, you know, working on the script for someone else. But no, like he co-wrote that with Escal vote. His like, collaboration or yeah, I'm collaborator who was like worked on like almost every film with him. And you're like, okay, so can't even be like, oh, that wasn't his fault. No, it wasn't like it wasn't a paycheck game. I mean, maybe it paid a little more. Yeah. And then he made film up, which is this very

strange sort of supernatural. Yeah. Like creature sexual allegory kind of would be that feels totally YA is right, like, and I guess you could maybe see him trying to like establish himself more on a marketable standpoint or an international standpoint, which is like, you know, he's got to pay the bills. You know, so I guess I get that. But it's just so interesting that after that, he's then like, this is not working. Let me go back to Anderson Lee, who is the star of his,

you know, first two films. Let's go back to Oslo, like, fully. Yeah. And just start talking about life again. Yeah. And then it's worked so brilliantly. And Renata Ryan's that was in, uh, also August, their first, uh, you know, and he made her the lead of worse person in the world. And that really also introduced her, like, that was her international breakout film. Yeah. You know, that she was

the first time a lot of us kind of were like, oh, she's amazing. Yeah. I have not seen any of his previous

film. Yeah. But you're talking about how he made an English language movie that maybe didn't work. There's a, a lot of discussion in this movie about whether whether the movie is going to be an English and like they're going to be Netflix. And so are you, are you, and because this movie is, I guess more about the process of making a movie, do you feel like there's a lot of his experience making about making films in this movie? I would guess so. I mean, it is in particular about the

idea of, you know, he's trying to make, uh, essentially, like a Scandinavian art film, right? Like he's like this revered Swedish filmmaker, uh, Stella and Skarzgerd's character. And, uh, has this reputation that gets him invited to festivals. But yeah, like, you know, how does this Hollywood star, uh, play by Elvending, like, notice him? It's because he happens to see him getting this tribute at festivals. Is that the Doville American film festival? Yeah. It's just a particular kind of film

festival. Yeah. She would be at. And then she's like so moved by this screening, you know, um,

“but yeah, I think she defies Cat Cohen to go. Exactly. It brought song on the way from her”

publicist team. Yeah. It's like, you know, to me, more doing passion of mind, like, you know, like, there's a long history of actors being like, I'm going to seek out this like Euro director and they're going to really transform me. Yeah. And I think that partly that's the meta-textualness of like, trio doing this story. I mean, you know, Skarzgerd's character is significantly older than trio is, but like, is like, maybe him resigning a little bit to like, I think I'm good in this

lane. Like, I'm probably not going to skip across the Atlantic and become, you know, uh, Yandabahant. I mean, I don't think he wanted to become that. Right. But you know, I mean, like, a European director who then goes and makes like a fortune in Hollywood. He's like, I'm good here. And I can kind of work not necessarily in or out of one system, but kind of between the systems. All right. We're going to talk more specific plot points and spoilers for sentimental value.

“If you want to skip that, you can fast forward 19 minutes. I think it is a bit about the kind of,”

like, thrill, but the terror of being like, oh, you know, you have this major star, um, board does she actually fit into your movie, you know, like, in ways that make sense, you know, even if she's incredibly game, you know, I just really want to do it. Like, the vision that you actually have, like, can you compromise it in ways that, you know, make a film that you still think is your film? And I think, yeah, in really delicate ways, you know,

sentimental value is like, no, like, right. Yeah. Well, and it also, there's a thread about sort of

for his daughter. Um, she won't do it. So, L fannings character Rachel is so interested in him, and so, and so interested in making this movie. And yet he can't help sort of like he has her dire hair. The same color is his daughter. And like, everybody sort of sees what's going on, and it's all none of it feels very like manipulative or sinister. It's not like a vertigo kind of a thing,

but L fannings character ultimately is like, I can't, I can't do this movie. I don't feel like I'm

right for this movie. And you know that I'm not right for this movie. We all sort of like,

“can see this, and ultimately it ends up working with the daughter. And I think it's, I kept going”

back to like, why is, you know, what's the title means sentimental value? And this idea that like, sentiment, sometimes can work, you know, again, something and sometimes it can, you know, sort of work in its favor. Um, and I like the way the movie does not treat L fannings character as this like stereotypical actress, while also letting you in on the fact that like, you know, she's not like the best actress. She's not like the most, you know, intelligent or intuitive,

but she tries and she takes her craft seriously. And that's ultimately, I think, what he respects, you know, yeah, and maybe he's being a little hyperbolic when he's like, she's the best actress

of the generation. But like, he sees something. Yeah. I was white knuckling at the first time I saw

this movie being like, don't have them sleep together. Don't have sleep together. Um, yeah,

“that's luckily not a direction. I think trio would go in. Yeah. At least if, or if, and if he did,”

it would be done in an interesting sort of sense of way. Yeah. Yeah. But she expected to get nominated for this L. Yeah. I think she was in the mix. Like, I mean, it's actually, especially because people felt she got a little bit snubbed from a complete unknown last year. Um, Monica Barbaro got the supporting nomination for that movie instead. So I think that L was kind of like, she was, they were like, uh, don't leave the building yet. Yeah. Let's just see how this year goes.

And you know, I mean, this isn't actually a tricky movie. Uh, I think kind of campaigning wise, right? Because I don't know. Like, as much as I would say, if I were to pick one lead, and I don't know that you can, you can say there's maybe not one truly in this movie, but I would say it's still in character. Um, but I think like, like, on second viewing, that I felt like it was, you know. Yeah. And, but like, you know, they all share time. Like, Inga gets slightly less,

but still has her own kind of like storyline there. Um, and it builds, she gets more as

“yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, that can make it really tricky to build an Oscar narrative, right?”

Oh, yeah. You have like different. And instead, like, this film did quite well by that. Yeah. Yeah. I do think like to bring this back around to the idea of like movies about movies, unlike Jay Kelly, if they had ever made Jay Kelly. Um, you know, this is a movie where it is very takes craft very seriously. Yeah. It is also like, look at how annoying actors can be. Like, I love the scene with Renata in the beginning, having, what is apparently like, oh my god, uh, a regular

burst of stage, right, that she has every time that involves them having to physically restrain her and like push her on stage at what point she gives a great performance. But, um, yeah. You know, it is, it is very much like about, uh, like, look at how difficult and like kind of abrasive and like sometimes like painful, like trying to channel your true self into your work or artistic work can be, especially when it comes to all of the ways you are worse at communicating those things in

person and you like these, your loved ones. Yeah. And the movie never stacks the deck against any

of the characters. Everyone is, she is difficult, but also very sensitive and, and a good actor and scars guards character. Similarly, is like a very difficult person, but the scenes where he is protecting L fannings character from the press and stuff are actually kind of moving junket guy right out of it. Yeah. And so you see, I mean, this film is really anti-press, which I don't like, yeah. We, we should be celebrated. Yeah. I mean, I think the conversation, the, the conversation

where he, like, his character and Renata's character are just like riling, he's like riling her up so much. Also where he is trying to kind of express that he's concerned about her, but instead is just like coming across as like criticizing all of her life choices. Yes. And she also just takes it also personally immediately. Yeah. I think it's such a great, like it sums up like these years of like pain and miscommunications. Right. Perfectly and like I'm very small scene. And I think

scenes like that are one of the reasons that this film has done so well in terms of like acting. Yeah, I'm in an anger representing like, I don't know, maybe I'm speaking from personal experience being the sibling who has issues with parents, but not the issues that the other sibling has,

whoa, they just cannot get along. Like, and they're fine now, but like in those rough teenagers, and I was that want the pacifier, whatever, and like the kind of trying to like maintain the household harmony. And, and are you the older young? I'm a younger one. Yeah. Yeah. Which is where it is a classic middle child thing, but also like it falls to the younger I think in two siblings. But what I think that that in this character also knows and sees is like after that kind of

bickering moment, you know, the other two go out and smoke cigarettes and kind of like conspiratorally smile at each other. Yeah. And it's a lot like that scene in the fablements where the creepy uncle Jud Hersh comes and has this weird conversation with Sammy Fableman, where he's like, they don't get it. Yeah. Like we are artists, and it's going to be painful for the rest of your

“lives, and you're going to have to alienate your family if you want to choose this art. Yeah.”

And I think that Skarsgard's character and Ryan's was character understand that in each other. Even if they can't get along. Yeah. And in another way, like the the other person in that family unit is on the outside, even though she gets along right with her right. Right. Right. Well, the other thing that I thought watching at this time and this sort of goes to my like, you know,

this would appeal to boomers is this idea that this screenplay, finally, in this character,

says to Nora, it's just like just read it. You know, you don't have to do the movie, but just read it. Because I think this is about you and I think this is ultimately, you know, him finally apologizing to you through this script. And it's not about his mom. It's about you. But he still will, throughout the movie, even when given like ample opportunity, just refuses to give her an inch. Every time she, you know, calls him on the carpet for not

being there for them, he has this defensive, like everybody is piling up on dad or whatever. And it has this very thing of just like, I can only apologize to you in a way that feels like, you know, this one particular way, do not ask me to actually say the words, I am sorry, but I will, you know, do this. And that to me felt like every Oscar voter who's kids have a

“problem with them and they don't want to admit anything. But like, but can't you see that through my work?”

Sure. It's really romantic, right? That idea of being like, yeah. Find the piece. Yeah, right. Like, like, like, maybe a failure in so many personal ways, but like, in my art, I can, like, communicate something like more true than I ever could in. Like, does Christopher Nolan's daughter eventually see Interstellar and say, I guess this is an apology for missing all of my school plays. But you know, I mean, so mostly Jay Kelly is also about this or was the post to be right.

Right. That was, the trades were reporting that, but then obviously never got made.

It is amazing that they both have like two daughters. Like, they're so structurally like they're begging to be compared and it just turned out. So nine nominations for one. What I think and what I think that that sentiment of value does better than a lot of those director-apologizes movies, which, and there are a lot of them, writer-apologizes, you know, whatever, is that it, like you said, it gives equal weight to everybody. It understands where everyone kind of fits in this ecosystem.

“And I think it also has something really beautiful in the way that it is kind of almost”

resigned to kind of like the way that the generations tumble through time. You know, one of the sort of closing chains, you know, turns in the plot of the movie, you know, is that like, oh, another generation's getting into this, you know, the grandson is going to be in the movie

at this never ends and like did being in the movie harm Agnes so much? No, not necessarily,

but it did change the course of her life pretty irrevocably. And it's like an example of like this pain at the heart of the relationship with her father, which is like when she was doing the thing he cared about, like he, she had all of his attention. And as soon as she was not and she was just a regular person again, that the light was not on her anymore. And yet something in her, as we all do, maybe, you know, with a fair amount of hopefulness or foolishness,

is like, it'll be different the next time. You know, different for him because I'm around, I can, I can make sure this doesn't have what happens. You know, I'll always love him even when he's not starring in my dad's movie or whatever. But you also know that there's a gamble there. There's definitely risk there. And I think that what the movie says about like how much you can change family trajectory and how much you kind of have to deal with what is innate and

most kind of inevitable. I think is really, really well done. I also wonder if part of it is the fact that it is, this is ultimately not joke him, Trier, telling his own story. Yeah, so Trier has two kids who were relatively young, I believe. And so maybe he's sort of almost anticipated something. What he's going to do on the right. Right. Yeah, I don't know enough of it. Yeah, I think he said he was, he had become a father when he started writing the movie,

but then, and then like learned his second child in the way and the same kind of spacing as the two women. Right. I kind of say like, I, and look, he's not the only one doing this, but I really do

really 51, but on the younger side, who is like, he's writing out, like, outside of immediate lived experience, but yes, like kind of increasingly rare, like I feel like everything in this sort of auto or era, it's like, why is that horror movie this well? Because my mom got sick when I was going to say, okay, that's a perfectly valid thing to make a movie about, but what if we just came up with a story? Yeah. That I'm dead nothing to do with poor Ari Auster's real mother is

getting dragged through the moment of the poet who lives in Westchester who sounds terrifying. Yeah,

“you know, there is sentiment as the film title would suggest, but I think there is also a really”

respectable and interesting amount of darkness, like watching it for a second time, I was like,

oh, this is a haunted house movie. You know, this is about a movie about people contending with us spirit or several spirits that are like filling this space and infecting their lives. And L fanning is this kind of like final girl that asks person who shows up and is like, oh, this house is fucked up. Like that stool, like, which she thinks was used for the tear thing. You know, and, and I think that it's that that maybe I have issues with the very end of the

movie where there's this knowing look exchange between father and daughter and it feels a bit like on the nose, but for the most part, he really resists getting anything sort of sappy in there at all. Yeah, I mean, I think that is what makes this movie feel less maybe like gooey than, yeah, like, you know, movies that are very like have this very kind of what I had idea about the process of making movies and writing like that. Like it is, it is very much like the family drama

comes first, you know, like the kind of filmmaking is the mechanism through which the family drama continues, but also it is like, it is about like a work, right, like workplace kind of like, like, like issues in a lot of ways. The fact that you work with your father, the fact that it ends with them on the set rather than filming in the house, also, if you think that it is gone, right?

“Well, that was just been renovated. And I think that that's such a crucial little bit of footage”

in that the very end of that movie, it's never commented on, but it's like, oh, look at all the

new modern trappings of the fancy stove and all that. This house is now changed and it's going to be someone else's and we have left the building. We have then, instead, safely recreated our version of the house in an environment that we can control. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and there's a crack in the family. Yeah, which is the very beginning and I sort of wonder at the end by selling the house, are they repairing that crack or they passing it out? Yeah, I do appreciate that the remodel is like

your standard, like bland color. It's like, yeah, it's just like, oh, it's the regular remodel, they do this in your way as well. I do, I will say, my favorite parts of this film are the burst, and this is like very much like brings you back to tears earlier films, like the bursts of flashbacks into the house, like the past, you know, like from when the women were children and then from previous generations, like the part that just like runs through, you know, from like Gustav's

childhood into like the aunt inheriting the house, like the kind of lesbian aunt, when it was not acknowledged, and then like into Roman parties at the house. Yeah, like passed on and on and this kind of like the ways in which there's like enormous bursts of history that are like just I love his like his montages of those, and I, there's this kind of energy to them that I wish some other parts of

“the film had. Yeah, that's fair. I think it's, it's fun to watch him, like be like, oh, he's really”

going for it. He's going to do the house up in period detail, and he's going to have actors in period costumes, like even if it's only for 20 seconds of footage, like I think that's cool. And it reminded me of a film that I actually like more than this this year, that way, it didn't go anywhere, a sound of falling, which was like the German's mission for international film, which it didn't get nominated. It was too much of a slaps of comedy. It was just a hilarity

or something. Yeah, you know, no sound nomination for a movie about the sound of falling. Yeah, there's a lot of good sound in them. There is. So like this is a German film that takes place entirely on this one kind of farmhouse over four generations. So like basically covering a century and skipping between these four generations, and like these different four families gets into some really dark territory. Also like drops you in, and really does not extend a hand to give you any guidance

for a long time. It's alienating. Yeah. It is. It's a tougher set, certainly. The way I thought

it was incredible. But like that is a film that is entirely like the axis of the film is this physical

space, is this building. And I feel like the parts of Center for the Value that did that I loved. Yeah, and I think that the device of having characters listen through the little the stove. Yes. And the first time we, you know, we see Nora telling her nephew about it. And she's just showing

Yeah. And she didn't know he was going to be there. And it's like, and you can almost see her calculator like, is that a ghost? Like, what's going on? Am I hallucinating? Yeah. And then to have that come back where it's another a relative listening as her mother is sort of being taken away. You know, like, like, I think that, yeah, the house stuff is really interesting. And the movie, I think does sag a little bit when it leaves the house. You know, there are great moments.

But I think that the stuff with Andrew Stangelsen Lee is a bit more schematic. Like, oh, he's he's left his wife, but now he doesn't want to be with me. Like, that's a little bit. He goes a little leftover from the worst person in the world. Oh, great. It's a little bit too. Even though I love seeing

Anders, I mean, I mean, he's an amazing. Oh, yeah, he's incredible. And also a doctor. He's also a doctor.

“Yeah. Um, you should really re-watch Oslo 31st August and reprieze because he's very handsome in”

them and very good at them. Yeah. I was bummed it didn't get a production design nomination for as much as cool as I thought the house was. I mean, I mean, it's interesting that it got that editing nomination, which the editing is interesting and good. But it's like, okay, if you're going to go that deep on this movie, then let's keep going. Yeah, cinematography and production design, sure. Yeah. Do we know if it's a real house? Can we visit? That's a great question.

Good. I'm assuming that the at least. Yeah, he may be at the house. He's walked by Nauselo and it's like, I want to make a movie about that house. I don't know. Or maybe they built the whole thing. I genuinely don't know. Yeah, I have no idea either. So at the end of this movie, when they're on the set, uh, but Trier is careful to show this the old cinematographer sitting to two Gustav's left. Yeah. Are we to take that that means he he dropped the Netflix and so he was able to hire

who he wanted to hire. So we think the Netflix has been issued, right? Yeah, that that I mean, been a return to yeah, the fact that he got he got he got he got to make the movie he wanted to make. His daughter's in the role and yeah. So Netflix probably left with Rachel. Yeah, I mean the

presumption that he sold the house in order to finance the film. Maybe. Yeah, they never say it,

right? That would make sense though. Yeah. Also, do we think that she did hang herself at the end of this movie within a movie? Oh, like in the movie when she shuts the door. Yeah. I don't know though.

“Oh, I guess I think there may be trying to like he or the past a little bit there like, oh, maybe I'm”

wrong. I feel like the maybe it it doesn't. We don't hear the chair fall. Yeah, but I also felt like it would make sense for her re-enacting it to also then feel like it's closing the door on like her over depression, right? And her own kind of like ideation that she's like struggled with. So that would make sense. As a kind of exorcism. So that's true. To my embarrassment, that's bad fooled me. That scene where they pull out and it's just like, oh, they're filming a scene. I was just like

so good. Don't even of course, they're filming a scene. You know what I mean? It's a very blues guy outside those windows. Yeah. How am I supposed to be sitting in the can? No, I'm supposed to be sitting in the can. You know, you're also sitting in the can. You're just sitting in the can. And then you're just sitting in the can. No, no, no. I'm not like that. I'm like, hey, so my safe space. You're like, oh, you're all sitting there? Yeah, exactly. Like, so the can is like a can that just stops? A can of studio, job or to the can?

Can you stop? I feel like I'm not like a can. Can you read it? Save. With what can I do? This, as we said, it's a movie we all like a lot though, like not our favorite of his movies. But it is in a particularly difficult race for international film this year. I would say, you know, it's going up against. It was just an accident. The first film that you're

far from now, he was able to make a sense of ban on filmmaking was lifted. Even though he was making

“films a whole time. It's kind of in secret. The secret agent of which we talked about in the last”

episode and it's gaining tons of momentum. It's just like feels like this just incredible like

enormous swing of a film. Then you've got Sarat, this kind of like very jagged, interesting, movie that feels like it speaks to this moment of like things. Like the kind of like, like things like structures that we previously saw as kind of like stable crumbling. Yes, in the background. And then the voice of Henry Job, which is, you know, has this like kind of like enormously heartbreaking story that it is re-enacting and that uses the real audio from from the death of this

child. Yeah, I mean, sentimental is the only non-political. I mean, you could make the Derr, Derr politics in that movie for sure, but it's, you know, the other four. There's significantly more minor scale than these others. Yeah. And it's, the whole, the movie as it's awards sort of positioning is strange. I mean, because it did, you know, it played very well it can. It won the Grand Prix, I believe, which is second prize or third prize? Second. And so

but I was there with a former colleague who's a big Oscar predictor and he was like, oh yeah,

that's a lock for these categories. And I was like, really, though, I mean, I don't know. That

“seems far-fetched. But he was right. It turns out, but I think it hasn't quite despite”

overperforming arguably and nominations. I think it hasn't held on to that momentum or that sort of heat, because I think what you pointed out just now, Allison, it's like, it doesn't have that extra hook of urgency. But it also really overperformed on the Oscars in terms of nominations. Yes, yeah. I mean, it's possible that it will then go on to not win anything, but I was surprised by how many how many nominations a guy. There was a time when it was like, oh, Skars Guard is winning.

It's a query. It's for both a great performance in one movie, but I'm not clear. I was directed at the globes a little bit. Now we're like, we're still now. And then the BAFTA is where I thought that's where he would repeat if he was going to repeat in the lead up to Oscars. It didn't go his way. And I was like, oh, I guess maybe he doesn't have this sewn up and what Kyle Beacon and our friend and colleague has been saying for months now is like, no, no, no, don't pay attention

to what's happening before the Oscars Sean Penn is winning that Oscars. The extreme degree of confidence Kyle has and that is both worth listening to and also love you Kyle has me rooting against that's hard because I'm like, you're so confident. I just need it to be wrong. Do you have any thoughts, Joe, on whether or not there would have been any wisdom in running

“Stella in lead? I mean, it would have been more honest. I think and I sort of felt the same way”

about Paul Maskell who ended up not getting nominated even for supporting. Oftentimes this is the it's a, you know, it's a strategic calculus, right? You're keeping them out of best actor in part because best actor tends to be filled with often bigger stars and certainly stone scars guard has been, you know, a character actor throughout his career and whatever, but it's also performances where, you know, Michael B. Jordan is playing twins, the two twin leads of the movie,

Timothy Chalame is playing Marty Mouser in Marty Supreme. He's the sole focus of that movie. To Caprio's a little bit more has to sort of like share the spotlight a little bit more, but like Wagner Mora, Ethan Hawke. Like it's as much about, um, it's as much about being the focus of your movie. I think every time this is studio seemed to think they can get away with it when it's like, yeah, but the movie's not really just about them. It's about, you know, it's,

it's Jesse Buckley's story. It's Renata Rines of a story. They're the leads. There's this, you know, this fallacy that drives me crazy when people are just like, you know, um, but there's only one lead of the movie. It's like, no, they're movies with two leads. They're often, there's a bit for lead.

There's their movies with zero lead sometimes, you know what I mean? Um, but Jay Kelly, because they never

made it. They never made it. Sometimes New York is, you know, absolutely one of that. Your main character, like Donald Sutherland, New York has never been nominated.

“Nor has Tiffany New York Pollard. Unless the dress is not yet, um, but I think that's sort of what”

you're, you're getting in the case with, if you put Stalin in lead, it's very, it would have been very, very difficult, I think, for him to be as impressive, you know, when to stand out to voters, for, you know, for as much as I think it's a really great performance, I think if you're looking at it strategically, then you're thinking, well, in a supporting category, then you're, you're putting him up against other people who are sharing their movie spotlight a little bit more.

And, and it would have meant no Ethanop presumably. Right. So that's a nice, yeah, I should. Although, I don't know, I kind of think this is a bit of a, a depression, but I kind of, I was thinking about it the other day, I was like, maybe it was bathroom related. I think the, the capitol might be in fifth position. I think he might be the weekend. Definitely, a lot of people are still framing this as like Timmy versus, I don't think it that way. Yeah, I've been that way. It hasn't been that way

in a long time. Yeah. And yeah, now it feels to me much more like, like, I think we're going to keep. Yeah, yeah, Timmy and Dr. Gordon. Yeah. Probably, Ethan, and yeah, I would say Leo's, because that's, the other things, like, they're given so many other things to one battle after another.

They're not going to go out of their way to give Leo a second Oscar when there are other

more attractive narratives or performances or, you know, so like, that role is kind of deliberately this like diminished non-heroic, you know, like, that's the point of that role. Right. Like, what's this kind of fool, you know, running around trying to, to help and not actually accomplish designs to be more appealing to critics types, like us who look at that and be like, look at what he's doing playing a non-dynamic character and stuff like that. This is like,

words voters just don't operate along those lines. Yeah. So, um, yeah, do you think having L in this movie helps everyone else, like, if you're, if you're making a foreign film, it's probably

I mean, it's, it's definitely, I mean, Trier is a lock to direct the next predator movie with

that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was just, yeah. Everyone loves that predator movie. It's really good.

“No. I think it's, it is a queer YA about, you are a, you're correct. A young alien finding”

the strength female. It's just the coolest twins in that movie. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I loved when I said that in my THR review is all the men on Twitter. I was going to say that. They really enjoyed that take on their beloved predator predator. Um, but no, I think to, I mean, I think that at something like can, after worst person in the world, Trier had no problem getting attention there. But having alfany in endstone's credit card in it, like bumps it up that one extra level,

where it's not just winning awards it can, but then it has like a hope of a life past, you know,

that festival. Well, and one thing I wanted to mention about the international feature race, too,

is it's so interesting in part because the, the, the Academy has become more international and thus the best picture race overlaps so much now with international feature, where like, you know, multiple international movies are now nominated for Best Picture. And so those movies they're buzz in their story sort of evolves over the course of the, the season in a lot more interesting ways, whereas like you remember like the sag nominations happened and none of the

international movies got anything from there. And with the, with the DJ and PGA, too, I feel like, like it was a thing like what's the problem? Well, they're not in our union. So I mean, some of them

“probably are right, but I think, and so that then plays into a best picture nominee like”

sentimental value and like the secret agent in ways that like that wouldn't happen in the past when

you didn't have any international movies. And so the narrative with with sentimental value and it was just an accident is also really interesting because sentimental value, I've seen like the favorite going in the can to, or one of the favorites to take the poem. And I feel like it was just an accident kind of leapfrogged it there. Yeah. They've been sort of, they were sort of seem to be jostling with each other for a little bit. There are some thoughts about, I mean,

I think this is unfair to it was just an accident because that's a brilliant movie. But like, there were some thoughts on the ground it can at the like closing night party where when, when we weren't staring at Oliver Lashay, the director of Serac, staring up and screaming you're not. But no, Julio Pinoch was the president of the jury into last year. And she had worked with Kira Stami who was a close colleague of Pinoch. And she knew Pinoch for a long time was really

close with him or to some extent that they were like, oh, if his movie was even halfway decent,

“there was no chance that anything else was there. I think that's probably unfair because the”

movie is really good. And like, but I think it was also the vibe it can this year. And maybe it was but no kind of leading that charge was like, we're not giving top price to something that does not respond to the political times that were shared. Yeah. And sentimental value does not do that, which is fine. I mean, it doesn't have to do that. Neither is ham net, whatever. But like, but yeah, that was kind of it. I mean, I mean, when worse person in the world was out, I definitely

remember times on Twitter where I got the feeling from like, you know, when you discover that someone halfway across the world has followed your career long enough to hate you really passionately and in like very specific ways. Like, like, like, responded to something as I said, but like describing worse person in the world. And like, tears films in general as like white person problems. And I'm like, sure, certainly on a global sense, they absolutely are about white

person problems. I mean, I was thinking about that with the dream's trilogy, you know, also from from, which are lovely, lovely films that are also set in Oslo. We were like, oh, these films are able, these characters are able to embark on these like very delicate explorations about their identities and sexuality and their gender and about like what they're looking for in terms of romance. Um, in part because they seem to have like a really solid, you know, stable, right,

a beautiful stained with floors underneath them of this whole pair of blah, blah, blah, blah, all this other stuff. Yeah, like one of them is like a chimney sweep and seems to have a nice relaxing predator, like in the past life off of, yeah. So, um, maybe that's the subtle politics of these movies. They're like, see how it could. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Look, you'll have all of his time to, like, then, uh, you know, have a broke and kind of like a class with your daughter by, uh,

at revenge by casting an American star in the role she turned out with, fully ride the ferry and flirt with a man, you know, just one of them. Yeah. Um, but I do wonder if that is something. I mean, like, this is, yeah, a film that broke out into the larger, like kind of like nominations pool, but like, uh, I do feel like in a year where it feels like there is a lot of urgency, uh, even if the Berlin film festival, and no one wanted to, you know, talk politics, uh, including, you know,

yeah. The, like, that, that there is a lot of pressure to be like, yeah. It's something that, that, that, that, in order to, uh, award something that feels like it

there, there are definitely politics in an or a foreshore. Uh, but like, that also is a really fun time, you know, it's, it's lighter than some other things, you know, uh, maybe there were just like, okay, now this year, though, with everything that, like, we need to go disdirection instead, which is kind of why I was holding on to the Skarsguard thing as being like, well, but that, just sort of kind of, because it's outside of that concern, and he can just win for a great career,

and he was so good on Andor recently, and he's right in this movie, and people like him, and

he's, you know, basically, uh, sired the next generation of actor, right, you know, like, so,

like, he's contributing to the, it's probably economy in that way. Um, but I, I don't know, I just don't feel it right now. Even, the gold, the globe thing felt very, like, globs going to globe, and I just, the bad thing I was like, that's where I really thought he was going to get it there. But, uh, yeah, uh, all of the acting categories feel very unsettled now,

“three of the four, I think, yeah, just like we still pretty, but even that one, she's been so locked”

in that one that it feels like, well, we just, like, haven't talked about best actress kind of at all, right, right, that's something crazy happened. I mean, we wouldn't know because, like, nobody's talking about it, um, but yeah, supporting actress, supporting actor, and best actor, I'll feel, it excitingly, my worry is that, like, the saga, sorry, the actor awards, um, are going to happen, Jen, you've liked when you say, um, but, um, and then, like,

my worry is that, like, well, then, whoever wins those is just going to win the Oscars, it's going to seem in retrospect a lot more boring. Um, and I hope that's not the case. I hope, my, you know, my hope is that, like, well, you know, uh, different people, uh, who's one, everything else can win at, you know, at actor awards. Yeah. And all of a sudden, it's just like, well, we're going in there and like, nobody has a precursor advantage, and that's kind of

the dream for awards, and they're like, me, I'm like, yes. We were talking about this with, uh, our EP, Griffin Newman, and, and like, he was saying, like, oh, it reminds me of the year that, uh, when, until the switten, ultimately won for Michael Clayton, like, everyone else had won in a different award show. Right. There's also the Marcia Gay Harden year to, to consider there. Yeah. Um, and that's exciting, you know, I, through and I do, I do things that like, in, uh, and L,

probably, we'll split that vote a little bit. I don't think they're in front of the pack, but like, when we Musaco winning the BAFTA is really interesting to me, and, uh, and Tiana Taylor

“still, I would probably place her at the head of that pack, but yeah, I think those two in Amy”

Madigan are pulling, are pulling votes, and we'll see how it shakes out. Are these, rank choice, not for acting, not for acting just for best. So it's first best to post for acting.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they never will show us the numbers, even though that's the great,

I keep, I keep sending the envelopes full of money. And how close was blinded? Like, you're not wealthy enough to, yeah, this way. Well, some people do a heist of the Academy Museum and steal all that data. Yeah. And we like, we don't want, you know, who's going to win the next Oscars, just give us the data. We'll be really mean and call up Glenn and Annette Benning. Uh-huh. Look, do you want to know how close you were? My proposal is because I have good news and bad.

Yes. My proposals that we treat it like the Warren Commission reports, and just like, after a certain number of years, like, this year gets declassified. So we won't be able to find out anything that we remember from our lifetime. Right. But like, the 1964 Oscars, now week right. Like, what, how close was Marsha Mason when she was, yeah, right exactly. Exactly.

Exactly. All those people who were very old, they'll finally, like, slip, like,

oh, Lang almost lost for blue sky. Right. It's the taunting from the Simpsons. It's like the last remaining, 1960, the best actress. Yeah. When he is finally died, we can, we can reveal these tools. So they have that data. So yeah, somewhere. And I've vaulted some either at the Price Waterhouse somewhere in some Academy office. Unless there was some sort of suspicious fire before it was all digital. The water gate of the, of the, not going to write that. Yeah. All right. There we go.

You know, we've talked about, uh, last time we talked about the increasing kind of, like, international focus of the Oscars. Um, but how much do you think? Like, I mean, the actors who got breakouts in international films and then have come and worked in English English English films. Like, we're seeing that a lot more, too. I mean, like, back and more. We talked about, yeah. Uh, Lee Bung, who, who, and no other choice did not end up getting nominated. But like,

I, I feel like his visibility in, uh, a flash of, like, mostly unfortunate, uh, Hollywood roles. Um, now, like, he was, like, a known commodity, even for people who did not actually pay a lot of attention to South Korean cinema. Right. And then, like, Renata, now Renata Rainsva has, like, started to make some American films. He has not, like, did, like, do full force into some, like, she's doing, like, interesting, kind of smaller things. Yeah. But like, things that people have seen, right? Like,

“I think people have liked, uh, a different man, uh, for instance. I thought she was so good in that.”

Yeah. She's got some. She's going to be in back rooms. The age 24 movie being directed by

maybe this kid's brilliant. But like, I, I don't know, anyway, whatever. Yes. Just going to be in that. That'll get more attention to some family guy. Like, gifts, just like, there would be any good, like, the job scare. Yeah. It's like, it's the top of the screen. It's going to be like, someone doing a playthrough of a video game. The bottom screen is going to be like, yeah, family guy. Like, they do in TikTok. And then Renata is just going to be acting over the other corner.

Yeah, and then she's going to, yeah, keep saying, let's go. Like, she's in one of my most anticipated movies coming up, which is fjord. She's going to be, uh, she plays the fjord in fjord. No, no, I heard Sebastian San in the new Christian. Oh, right. That's assumed to be at can,

“which would be interesting. I think it's English language. I could be wrong about that. But it's, uh,”

certainly Christian, when you're working with Hollywood, folk for the first time. You know,

I, my, my hunch would be that, you know, Ryan's vote. Who, by the way, watching the movie again, what a face. Like, as someone who has Rosacea and my face often looks very flushed, I appreciate that that is also true of Renata. I don't want to like make any comments about her appear. I mean, she's gorgeous. Right. But I was watching at the movie again. And I was like, yeah, same girl. Yeah. Yeah. I look very red face. But a lot of the time. Yeah. Just that, that sort of

placid, but, but thoughtfully, there's something so just fascinating to watch about her. I think that she will have a nice career be it, you know, in the, your, your, your art house, maybe educational, sort of dip into something Hollywood adjacent. Um, Inga, it's daughter Lilia's like, I hope the same for her. Yeah. Um, my hunch is that she'll probably do more in the region TV, theater, all that stuff. Like, everyone will be like benefited by this. Yeah. But unfortunately, this sort of global

film economy seems that is governed by the US sort of interest will like, in some sense, is will probably be like, we're going to pick one or one of you every couple years. We're not going to let you all in it. Come on. Like, that's too much. But yeah, I think that we're not as that one. Renata Rhin's for in a Mia Hanson love movie. What would you do to make that happen?

“Oh, I mean, I would fund it. That's what I would do. I would, I would, I would rob the”

album. I would rob the music and sell that data. Yeah. That'd be great. She'd be perfect. Before we go, I thought it would be funny to check in on the vulture.com Instagram account,

which, um, wait. No, no, why, why are we doing that? Uh, this is too much. I first for people who aren't

who haven't been following us when the beginning, our friends at vulture. Uh, they are clipping video of the show and putting it on their Instagram and other social accounts. And, um, for last week, uh, they clip us talking about, uh, Wagner Morris, wonderful performance in the secret age. Okay. And what do you know? You're looking through the comments there. Oh. And it's almost entirely in Portuguese. I was just like, love it, yeah. Yeah. There's a film internet represents. This is

becoming like the news sort of like put the number, like put a listicle in your headline and or what, and you're going to get traffic. It's like just to the last two years, um, you know, you, uh, an Oscar nomination morning. You sign on. You pull up the YouTube and then they have the chat there and the last two years I signed on and I click it literally is just like a rapidly unfolding list. You're like, what is this? The A's or is it one of my just, it's that over and over and over again.

But now the crucial, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's their very active. The crucial question has been

are the comments, have like, are they, are they favorable? Oh, yes. There's a lot of, okay, a lot of pro-vogner, um, the actor, not the, not the, not the composer. Although there might be some of those it is, it is comments. Um, where are we going next week? Oh, yeah. So we are leaving Norway. And flying back to America, but also back into the past of centers. Yeah. Which I think you can probably find, it might, it might be on movie. I don't know. It's a pretty small movie, but let's try,

see it out if you get a black, you know, like a black copy of it. Um, so long as you're doing video for, uh, for Instagram, you want to, you're going to break out your Irish jig. I think at some point, right? It's, I mean, it was inevitable at some point. Okay. Okay. Yeah, look forward to it. Uh, yes. So everyone, if you haven't yet, watch centers or rewatch it, which I'm excited to do, uh, haven't seen it since the spring of last year. Uh, and we'll see you back here.

And Joe, thank you for being here. Thank you. Um, good luck. How, how much, how many more

“nominated films do you have to watch? I have three short films. That's it. That's, uh,”

oh, wow. Who was my last feature that I watched yesterday? So yeah, I'm just, can you give us any kind of tease about what might be toward the bottom or toward the top? Um, I watched a movie about dinosaurs the other day that they didn't really care for. So, um, that could be near the bottom. I will say the best picture nominees this year. That's a really, really mean description of the Diane warned. Yeah. The Diane warned documentary is going to be higher than a lot of

people want it to be. And by that, I mean, it's not in the, it's not in the bottom five. So, okay. Um, yeah, I think the best picture nominees are all generally towards the upper half of the list. It's

while we're plugged in, um, Joe, what's coming up on this hat, Oscar buzz. This hat, Oscar buzz. We just

“had an episode go up on Robert Altman's the company. The, the movie he wrote up, uh, Gossford Park”

with him in the, uh, Ned Campbell made what 400 million. Oh, yeah. It was, yeah, huge blockbuster. Um,

and then coming up soon, we did an episode on the Don Bruce movie Happy Endings that I love. Maggie Jellon, Paul got an independent spirit. Not many. Well, because she sings, uh, Billy Jellon. She's beautifully Billy Jellon. I, one of my things we talked about there was like,

why did she never just like record a cover of Billy Jellon? I had a number of Billy Jell covers. Yeah.

“I had a non-ipod non-zoon. I had some other third secret, third, third, and he replayed that”

could fit about 40 songs and two of them were Jellon Hall singing. Yeah. It Billy Jellon from that. She's got a great voice. So, yeah. Okay. Well, I'll be, you're listening that while we're plugging also the people, please subscribe to premiereparty.com. My newsletter doing fun things there, including coming up my recap of the Oscars from 20 years ago, which really clue probably

“hundreds of gifts which I have to make. I always remember that. All right. All right. We'll see you next week.”

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