Critical Darlings: The Secret Agent And The Increasingly International Academy

Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the award season conversation.

One contender at a time. [MUSIC] Please welcome to the stage, your hosts, Richard Lawson, and Allison Wilmore. [APPLAUSE] Marie, thank you as ever for that wonderful introduction and for being a guest on the show last week.

We don't have a guest this week, but we are, of course, joined as always by producer Ben Halobin. >> People Brazil? >> Yeah, good. >> Guten talk to you more mainly today going to be talking about the secret agent, but also international films, their presence in America in the box office and at the Oscars.

I'll get into a little Berlin talk from, I was just at that film festival, but before we do that, we should acknowledge that this week, the Legendary Robert Duval died at the ripe old age of 95. I was asked by Rolling Stone to contribute a little blur for my favorite of his movie performances.

“And embarrassingly, I've seen him be great in many things, but I was like, I think he's wonderful”

and deep-impact. And they were like, we don't want that, but obviously that's not one of it, but he's really good in it. He definitely is, and of course, because we do talk awards here, let us reduce that legendary career to a series of Oscar nominations.

>> And one went, do you know what the win was for? I feel like it's not maybe the one you would expect. >> Is it for great Santini? No. >> tender mercies.

>> tender mercies. >> Yeah, thank you very much. >> Right, right. >> But nominated for Best Supporting for Godfather. Let's now.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah, no, he did get a favorite supporting actor, Sci-Fi, from the Blockbuster Entertainment Awards. >> Ooh, wait for what? >> Wait for the impact.

>> Oh, for great Santini. >> No, I was just like, I was like, they divide them all up by genre. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

>> Could you comedy musical? >> Sci-Fi had a great. Yeah, Best Actor nominated for Great Santini for the Apostle One. >> That was big in the night. >> Yeah.

>> That was fun back for him in the night. >> Then Best Supporting for a Civil Action and the judge, that movie we all love and talk about. >> And when I'll tell you, that judge nomination, he debases himself in that movie. In one particularly graphic way, that you're like, he's having, he was like, oh, good God, we gotta, we gotta make sure that's wasn't off or not, like, we gotta give him the

name here. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely a movie that I saw, that is not live in my opinion. In any way, in IMAX, because for whatever reason, it's just played at the IMAX theater in Toronto.

>> Yeah. >> But he obviously, incredible actor.

“And I think that when I was younger, he just sort of existed in my like movie consciousness”

because of, you know, various movies that my parents liked. And then the older I got, and I would revisit some of those things, or even watch him in new stuff. I mean, he was acting like well, like late into his life. He was just such a natural in a way that I think was maybe taken for granted because he

was so natural.

Like it didn't really seem, even though he could be kind of big and blustery, it always

just felt like, well, that's just that, I know that man, you know. >> Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, one of those people that you could take for granted, because they have just been, you know, part of the foundations of movie going for so long. But yeah, Richard, this morning, you were in Berlin. >> Yeah, yeah, good and good Morgan.

>> You have a lot. >> A long day, such as your dedication to the art of podcasting. >> As you can hear, I kind of lost my voice. I actually spent about five days wandering around Berlin with a cold, so I felt very Tom Hanks and Bridge of Spies.

And you know, that Berlin is a very modern city now and all that, but it still has a lot of vestiges of that sort of cold war era, like a lot of the subway cars are like these boxy yellow things and the streets aren't very brightly lit. It felt very atmospheric in that sort of Spie movie way, which I enjoyed, but I wasn't there for that.

I would say for movies. >> You weren't there to go try and get into Bearhine. Is that how you say it?

I've actually never, yes, okay.

>> I was right. >> No, God, no, no. >> I would just need to know. >> I know.

“>> You have to wait for a really long time, though.”

What if you just, you're like, you get the way, then you're like, that's all I need it. >> Thank you. >> That would be a, no, I didn't try for that, maybe another time. But it's an interesting trip, this Berlin fun festival, because it's like, it's in the winter,

but it's not Sunday and you're in a big city, which a lot of the festivals like can is a big town, but there's a little like area where that festival happens, Dido Park City, Dido, Telly right obviously Toronto, then it's even has its own sort of localized thing. There aren't screenings all over Venice, but in Berlin there are, there are all over the

There's a festival hub where like the main, you know, all the big premieres for the competition

films happen there, all that. But otherwise I was kind of just like riding a subway, seeing movies in different neighborhoods, which was kind of cool if it felt like a little bit. What's the thing they say about NYU kids, like the cities your campus, you know, and people are like, "I want a quad, I want a real campus."

And I kind of felt a little bit of that here where I was like, "I wish I kind of felt like I was with other festival people." How, how German does it feel? Um, like do, yeah, Germans give like ten minute long standing ovation, that seems somehow less German to me.

Not in my experience. I mean, I didn't go to any of the premieres, but like, apparently there was one movie called Rose Bush pruning that is like a Brazilian something else co-production, it's in English. And it was one of the big star-studded movies, so like Kalimternor, Tracy Letts, Elf, Henning, Riley Kiyo, Jamie Bell, we're in it, and apparently it's quite bad.

It's like an attempt at like, oh, like it's, it's some, it's some, most is former, or frequent collaborators, the screenwriter. Yeah, he wrote the, co-wrote the screenplays for dog tooth, Alps, the lobster, killing a sicker deer, kind of kindness. Yeah, so it's that sort of sensibility, but then mix with this Brazilian director who

made like Motel does Tino and a couple of other things. And apparently whenever so badly that there were some whistles at the of derision at the end of the press screening, but no booze.

“So I think it's a much more like reserved, had that movie been a can from the sound”

of it. I didn't see it. I think people would have been really, you know, vocal about it, of the big three year of festivals, that can Venice. It definitely feels the least like clamor, pomp and circumstance, all that.

That's where the golden bear, golden bear, yeah, and then it says the golden lion. And can has, well, the palm for the, yeah, golden, gold is gold is really the name of the game. And then the acting prize at Berlin is the silver bear, which used to be divided by gender, but I think about six years ago, they combined it into one lead, one supporting, which

Andrew Scott won last year for Blue Moon, which I think is kind of the first Oscary movie

that Berlin has had in a while, like 45 years, the Andrew hate film. That was a while ago, that led to a Charlotte Rampling nomination and some other buzz. But other than that, Berlin does not seem to function as like, but awards clearing house. And the context of awards, at least, this is not the place that you would look to. And even like, and we're going to talk more about the episode about like international

films in, now how they play in America, especially at the awards.

“And I think even from that context, like I don't know that of premier and Berlin is giving”

a movie that, you know, a state side distributor would want to have a high profile. I don't know if it's giving at that. But there were American celebrities there. Was there something with calmed Turner and Tracy, that, yeah, that's the bad one. And there was some sort of viral thing.

Oh, yeah. So someone at one, yeah, a hallmark of these three big European film festivals and others. I'm sure. Are these press conferences? And so you get all these journalists from all over in the panel of the director and the stars.

And it's usually the morning of the premiere. So all of the cast from Rose Bush pruning was doing that, I believe I'm Friday morning. So I'm journalists asked, count Turner, like kind of assuming like, so you're going to be James Bond. And the count Turner was like, oh, I'm not going to answer that.

And then Tracy, let's said, oh, actually, I'm going to be James Bond. But that was kind of a nice moment of levity because the press conferences this year at Berlin had mostly been marred by this very strange political discourse where the jury president, the director of inventors, who's been around forever, is like, he won a palm door years ago, like he, for what wings of desire, you know, a pretty respected director.

And he basically said, like, we're not going to get into politics. Like movies aren't political.

Like, I never was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then it kept coming

up to the extent that the director of the festival issued their own press release saying, like, please refrain from like, or something like to the effect of like, let's not direct politics into this where it doesn't need to be. And it was like, so yeah. Well, also like Arndati Roy, right, the novelist, he was supposed to be at the festival.

He was like a film show out in 1989, he had a restored version, and she, like, withdrew because she was so like, I rate that sentiment that inventors expressed. So I did really enjoy that someone, I guess, asked Robert Grint, a question about this at the press conference and led to the immortal quote, they asked him about fascism. He was like, obviously, I'm against it.

So I was, I was at dinner, oh, that's one good thing, amazing food and brilliant. I was at dinner with some colleagues, and we were talking about that.

“And do you guys remember that when, um, Rupert Grint, like, when the kids were like old enough”

to Harry Potter kids old enough to like, maybe have access to the money they've been earning?

And Rupert Grint was like, I bought an ice cream truck. And so I was imagining Rupert Grint driving his ice cream truck around one day, and all of a sudden, it's just like a light bubble for over his head. He was like, I opposed fascism as the songs going, you know, but no, I was like, he, that was a bold state.

Yeah, I know.

I'm never going to look up what the actual question was that he was asked because I just

prefer that. It was how's the ice cream truck? Correct. Yeah. Or someone who's just like fascism?

Right. It was like, obviously, I'm against it and then everyone just, I mean, it's, it look. I mean, obviously, like, I don't, I'm not a German historian, my European historian. Like, obviously Berlin is the locus of a lot of anxiety and, you know, historical sort of reckoning over things that happened, you know, almost a century ago.

And like the Berlin, the Berlin, the Berlin, the Palaist were like, all of this stuff is happening. Is maybe not even a ten minute walk from the Holocaust Memorial and all that. So like sensitivities are high, and I understand why, but it was just kind of interesting where like, where is it, can you kind of expect these crazy, like, political things to happen and like, Lars von Trier to like, make hearstendons look miserable while he talks about Nazis

and stuff. Yeah.

“Or like, at the awards last year, I mean, a lot of people brought up Gaza, you know?”

Yeah.

So it is interesting to you.

Well, I'm, well, we'll talk about, you know, Phil Hoes films like, like, when I saw Aquarius at Can Years ago, there was a huge, like, anti Bolsonaro protest on the red carpet, like, people holding banners and unfurling them in the theater. And Berlin just seemed really, at least this year, totally a verse to any such expression or even like questioning of the filmmakers.

So that was kind of put a weird sort of mood in there. I would say, I then the movies themselves, I didn't see that many because I was sick and tired and like, the schedule was kind of not to, didn't work in my favor, but with a specific set of assignments. So, right?

No, no. I was just kind of there. No, yeah, I was just there. I had an assignment I had to do a prisoner exchange with a sort of life. Well, that was just like on your own time, though, on your own time.

Yeah. So yeah, I didn't see anything that I think will like set the world of fire, like, let's say the secret agent when it played at Can. But the secret agent, I feel like at Can was not necessarily the, no, I would pick up to be like, this is going to start picking up a lot of steam.

You know, I mean, we have like two international films that have really, you know, done quite well across these Oscars, you have sentimental value, you have the secret agent. Yeah. I don't, I mean, I saw the secret, both of those ones that can, I saw this secret agent there and it was a form I liked a lot, though, I like you was like pretty tired when I

saw it. So I did not feel like I was giving it like my entire do, but it was not a film that I would have guessed would have gone as far as it has by any means.

“I mean, like it, I think is a film that has rewarded multiple viewings.”

I think it's a great film that is one of my favorite films of the year. It's also like not an easy film. No, it's not and yet it keeps winning and get nominated being nominated for and winning awards that like, like, it won at the spirit awards this past weekend. And not to knock that voting membership, but that's, you can just pay to be a member.

You can just pay to be a voter. I think it's like, set something, a hundred bucks a year or something. Right. I mean, this brings me to a eternal question. How real are in this case, the spirit awards, I feel like they're approximately

as real as the Gotham awards, right? They have a bit of an edge. They're little real. They're little real. I mean, they have a bit of an edge in that the nomination committee, which in this

case is always kept secret, is larger.

Yeah, it's not really even known, like how we have that. The Gotham awards, the nominated, the nominated, the nominated, the nominated is like five critics. And it's public. Yes.

And it's public. No one ever knows who's on the nominated. And there's photos of you being handed bags with dollar signs on them. And then there's writing that says nominate celebrity to move. And then I scurry off going like that.

Yeah. And then I scurry off going like that. Yeah. Yeah. And then I scurry off going like that.

Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to that, you know, the spirit awards are very careful about keeping who's on the nominated committee secret.

“But it is more people, and I think people from across the film industry.”

And they still have a budget cap on like the Gothams. They do sell the budget. Yeah. But then the people who vote on the actual awards are just anyone who wants to be a member of a film independent.

Right. And so oftentimes with the spirit awards, you'll get a really interesting list of nominees. A lot of times I haven't heard of that movie, like cool. That's something that I can check out.

And then the winner is the most basic choice among those nominations. You know, it's the biggest celebrity in lead actor category oftentimes the same in supporting. And so a movie like secret agent, I forget what it was nominated against. But like winning the international feature one, it's like I thought that movie was

kind of prickly and tricky and esoteric and sort of hard to to kind of grasp at

So that it really seems to be like penetrating even voting bodies that I think of

“is frankly being a little more like basic is interesting.”

And I guess maybe I don't know. I mean, it was a surprise, right, that it that we're talking about it. That it's like a best because everyone's so kind of seemed like it was just an accident. The Iranian film was going to get that slot. Yeah, I mean like this year's can was like I thought like this past year's can was a very

good can but it was a very internationally driven one, you know, not that it isn't always

international like we're like the United States does not code the go there being like we're the center of the universe. I mean, I can't I mean, or we do do that no one necessarily listens. So you have the you had the one big English language film into I my love, but Linda Ramsey is from Mars.

So like that doesn't it? It doesn't count. Yeah, right. And you, you know, you had some of these did not stick. Julia Dukearno's all alpha, which is coming out now, that never got any traction.

It did not go very well. Then were you a to Tian fan did you ever see Titan heard it now? I think you might like it. I think you might hate alpha her follow up. That's probably the steepest palm door win to like to follow up.

Yeah, that I've seen in a while. I mean, it was not yeah, it was not received well, dime I love was there. Adding to him was there, but neither of those has gotten the kind of awards traction history of sound was there. But adding to it and great at the turning point USA awards.

They also misunderstood it. I think. Yeah. Okay, but yeah, it was just an accident, which one the palm door. You have newvel fog that Richard Lincoln which at the time, that little bit it goes down

easy. You know, it's kind of it's sweet. It's sentimental. And that just yeah. Yeah.

Then be guns. Resurrection, which went over really well, critics, even though it's way too long.

“And it's just too, I think, like, difficult for, yeah, the secret agents, that's about”

the value. Serat, sound of falling, throughout doing better than a lot of the movies you just named. It's like really surprising. Because that, too, is also really brutal and, you know, airing and it runs into certain

taboos that I would not spoil here. But it deploys them so deliberately, like a statement, you know. You're talking about the tech music, you know, which we had banned. We had tried to ban in America. Yeah.

And I'm just like, it should be illegal. Yeah. No one should be allowed to play tech. No music. But I don't agree with this.

No. I'm kidding. I like it. In Europe, you can get away with it. No.

I, I like Serat a lot. But yeah, that was a film. I was kind of surprised how well that has continued to do it for us. Also, with the Mastermind, the Kelly record film, which I love was also in competition.

I never expect Kelly record to make a movie that is necessarily going to cause an enormous

splash here. Yeah. That's not really just the kind of movie she makes. Um, I feel like in a quieter year, maybe Josh O'Connor would have been more in the discussion considering how much he was in in in in in 2025 and it was good in all of the things he

was in. He's so good in the Mastermind. Yeah. And he would thought maybe something would have collect like in in combinations. I'm out if he would have broken through.

But. But yeah, secret agent. I, I don't know. My guess about why that sort of endured post can is that it rewatching it. I was like, okay, there are accessible elements here.

There's a sort of suspense angle. There's, you know, I also think that Brazil, just sort of is looming a lot in like movie consciousness in America right now, after I'm still here last year, political, you know, kind of parallels between our country and theirs. And obviously, we've talked about it on this podcast like Brazilian film fans are super

activated. And so I think they've just permeated the consciousness of people in a way that, um, and also, you know, he's a great filmmaker. He is a great filmmaker. I mean, it's interesting because I do feel like this is a much weirder movie than

I'm still here, right? Um, oh, yeah. Like, like, what is that I'm still here about? So it's about a former Brazilian congressman who is just kind of, you know, not in politics at the time.

He is like living this kind of lovely life with his family. And then he, uh, but it continues to be a kind of like vocal figure.

And he is basically just disappeared, um, and it is about the horror of that, but also

just the aftermath and just like how it affects everyone else in the focusing primarily on his wife. Yeah. Where she'll who who is nominated are these kinds of political films like mainstream in Brazil?

No, I don't think so.

“I think that it's kind of like, I remember years ago, I was saying to some French person”

at can. I was like, wow, you guys were so lucky. I mean, all of your movies are playing, you know, they were like Richard, no, the popular French movies are the worst comedies you've ever seen terrible action movies, like it's not that dissimilar.

I think I, I mean, I don't know for sure. I did look this up. If you look up the Brazilian box office for 2025, uh, the top slate of movies for like is all just like Hollywood studio stuff for like a long stretch. But then at 13 was, I'm still here, which did really well, you know, um, and, uh,

secret agent did not do quite as well, but like it still did.

of money, you know, um, so it, these are not small films, but I can like, it raises a, I feel like what you're getting at a bit is, um, all a lot of these homes that end up on the festival circuit are made. You can argue that their primary audience is the international festival circuit and not a domestic audience.

So there were also forces within the government, you know, passive administrations in Brazil that were kind of actively suppressing these films.

And, you know, in, in something as like, ultimately petty is like not nominating it or not

submitting it for the Oscars, but in other ways, being more aggressive about that. Yeah. Um, I mean, and certainly in some countries, like, uh, like in Iran, uh, you know, a lot of the films that are the most lauded internationally, uh, you know, these films from Iran are not shown because they're all banned, right?

Like, uh, they don't get approval to be shown in theaters, uh, and oftentimes the film

“makers are living an exile, um, so, and I think that sometimes that's like a really beautiful”

function of something like can, although sometimes I can detect, there's, I don't know, maybe I'm being silly, but like, a sort of like, are we being a little patronizing it? Like, like, I remember there was this movie a can years ago called Rafiki, and it was

from Kenya, and it was, I think the first Kenyan film ever to be, like, in, in a competition

again, and it was about two teenage girls who fall in love in Nairobi, and it was a sweet movie, first time filmmaker, like, like, nice energy to it. It wasn't like the best movie I've ever seen, but it was like solid, and I think it may be one I want in a ward or something or, or was at least close to, and the Kenyan government had banned the movie from playing in, in, in Kenya, and, and a lot of people on the ground, it can, we're like, well,

we're going to show them, and we're going to, you know, look, the rest of the world will teach that. And I understand that sentiment, but I think sometimes, I don't know, it can feel a little bit, like, let's not overstate what this festival is doing to the politics

“of another country. Yeah, I think it's also, it's an impossible to resolve”

divide. Like, I was talking to a filmmaker who'd grown up in Iran, and, and not gonna blow up his spot, but, uh, was just talking just like, so much shit about other, I was like, oh, the world of, like, the, uh, Iranian filmmakers is just as small and petty as, like, all other, kind of, like, uh, you know, artistic world where everyone is also a place directly in competition. Uh, everyone has their, like friends, and then they're their enemies,

but, um, he was, he was talking about just like that frustration of feeling, like, there is pressure for you to also, I mean, there is, like, people want to hear stories about how awful things are, right, in your repressive country, um, because that's a symbol of, like, one, like, you're speaking out against this, and also, like, uh, you know, it is offering this insight into, like, what life is like there, but obviously it's, like, a particular kind of insight, and, like, he was talking

about how, yeah, on, like, on one side, he's like, I don't support the regime, like, obviously, and on the other side was, like, but also it feels so uncomfortable to be, like, kind of, like,

always leaning into that for the benefit of, like, international audiences who watch that

and feel kind of very, like, self-satisfied about what, yeah, like, kind of what they're showcasing, and, right, yeah. Like, my idea of life in Tehran is, like, if I was just, like, reading all of those movies one way is like, oh, God, everyone's just walking around completely miserable there, and then I don't think that's, people, like, find a way to live, you know, my therapy, I know therapists used to say, even during the siege of let-in-grad, people took piano lessons,

you know, like, like, life goes on. And I do think that the best of these Iranian films or, whatever, you know, from other countries that are dealing with real political hardship, like, they do show at least some aspect of that, like, like, I don't know.

“I think two English films, or you've filmed some great Britain, they are also sold on their”

Britishness, and, and that kind of just becomes a market reality when you're trying to sell things to an American market, which is one of if not the largest English-speaking market, certainly, oh, 100%. And there, if you look at, like, Oscar, like, history, like, 80s, 90s, there have been different waves of the sort of Anglo-Philia within the Academy of, like, like, Billy Elliott, and full-mante kind of ushered in this sort of, like, you know, Pip-Pip sort of, like, quirky, cute,

like, let's put on a show, British movie, you know, the working title, a production company distributor, and, okay, those sort of, like, glossier romantic comedies that Americans became addicted to for a while, and thus Britain, the film industry there became addicted to, because they could make them and sell them overseas. Yeah, though there's just as much fetishization there as there can be without other. Yeah, or, I mean, you brought up France, and, like, you know, yes. Like, for a long time,

American arthouse cinemas were sustained by talky French dramas about infidelity, right? Like, like, that was just, like, with the woman's name as the title. Exactly. Like, that was just,

the most of the French films I was exposed to, I was just, like, well, this is what they watch in France all the time. And then you go to France, and all of the posters are for something called, like, Laboural Zay, like, a sex comedy about, like, these middle-aged friends going to, you know, on vacation together. Yeah. Or, um, I don't know, I was looking at the highest grossing French film, uh, in France last year, was like, the fifth, fourth or fifth installment in a comedy series called,

“like, God save the, toosh, I think it's called, which as far as I can tell, is about this weird family”

who wins the lottery in the first installment, and then just ending up in fish out of water situations

in different parts of the world. Um, I apologize if I miscategorizing that. Yeah, I do think, like, this most recent one that they end up in the UK. Um, but yeah, like, that there's some, do not come into your Patreon podcast. Or you watch a whole whole, yes, all of the toosh series. Great. Um, those ones do not come over here, right? Like, and I think there is also an interesting phenomenon where you have, I mean, like the most, the highest grossing film in Iran

is a comedy that came out in 2024 called 7030, you know, uh, does not come here. Like, there is, like, a particular, there are, there are market forces that also, and in particular, like, we still mostly play international films here in the context of art house, right? So, like, we don't have a lot of places to play something like a broad French comedy beyond the

“fact that I don't think we would necessarily get the jokes. You know, like, uh, it feels very, like,”

um, the humor feels very specific. Uh, where is that going to come out? Yeah, you know, films from India from various, you know, Hollywood and Hollywood. Those play at, you know, in New York City, they'll play at one of the bigger multiplexes for a week and or two, and some anime, especially increasingly, um, it does weirdly, even though that's, I don't know, it feels like K-pop, even under sort of broke the seal on that. Well, there's also been, I mean, there've been

one-offs of all of these, like, like, it'll be a film attached to an anime series. It will do, like, enormous numbers, you know, like, those, those are wildly popular, and it's like, kind of, own way that, if you're, like, clearly speaking to people who love a series of, like, a communal experience with other fans, but yeah, you have, like, Indian films that are often, sometimes, like, huge air, but are marketed almost exclusively to a diaspora audience, uh,

in bigger cities where there's, yeah, Chinese blockbusters will play. If you go to the 40s, I can see, um, here, uh, in the top floors, they will often have, like, you know, like, Chinese blockbusters also are not marketed outside of diaspora audiences, uh, films from the Philippines, like, romantic comedy. Like, there is this whole realm of, like, popular international cinema that, for the most often times, we do not even cure them.

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Thank you. Very kind.

So something I have always wondered about or been confused by is the process by which a film becomes

an international nomination. Because it's different. It sort of seems like there's a Eurovision sort of situation where countries submit films. But you can apparently submit a film that's not from your country because it was just an accident. Was the French? Yeah, it was the French thing. How does all of this work? So what happens is there's a Japanese lightning god named Raiden and he'll travel around and recruit various movies to compete against you. It's really busy.

Like that time of year, he's just zapping around. I always see him like Drunkett, like Can Parties. It's really embarrassing. It's like a new vacation now. Yeah, then he'll just zap away. No, I mean,

“it is up to the discretion of each country. Some of the selection committees, I think,”

are much more tied to the government than in other some countries that's more independent.

I mean, obviously they are in some way affiliated with the government because the film is representing that country to the extent that when you when like El mode over one like Spain got that Oscar, he didn't get that Oscar. Even though he held it on stage. But I think it really depends on the country in terms of it's oftentimes very political. There was that thing a couple of years ago where there was a film from India called At All the Imagineers Light that was at Can

a few years ago. It performed very well at Can, which is somewhat rare for an Indian film. The knock against it from people who are much more closely associated with the Indian film industry is like, well, it played well at Can because it plays like a Western movie. Like it has this

similar style to like a French indie that you might see at Can. It's kind of dreamy and sort of

it has, it uses more Western film grammar. And then the Indian, the board of India that would select what gets submitted to the Oscars picked a different film that they said in a statement better reflects India. And everyone was outraged because this female directed movie that everyone had loved at Can that a lot of Western people really loved was not chosen as the selection. And they said, well, that's so stupid because it would have gotten nominated in that would have

been huge for India. But in that case, the board of people deciding that didn't really care if it affected their Oscar chances. Would that other film have been still eligible for best picture? Oh, yeah, very much so. It's just that one category that has this kind of weird submission process that a lot of people think should be done away with. They've made some effort to correct it where they do like the long list thing now. They just, because it used to just be

is there a French film? It's getting nominated. And now that's changed a bit. Like they've tried to diversify what movies, you know, the nominated people are seeing. But in the case of a movie like it was just an accident that this year or seed of the sacred fake another Iranian film that went through Germany on, you know, in its Oscar campaign, a country can if there is some connection.

“I believe it was just an accident. It had some French financing and the seed of sacred”

fake, Muhammad Russell, if the director of that was living in exile in Germany at the time. And so there was a connection enough to the country that they were like, our stuff is not that you're able to just do this. And it's it's political good well. Yeah, it's also there's there there's so much politics. I mean, like famously a few years ago, France did not pick an out of me of a fall, right, which did go on to get like a best picture, a best director,

an nominee. And one of screenplay. Yeah. They chose the taste of things instead, which is, you know, with Gillette Benoche. I was a movie. I also really liked. But that caused a minor controversy. A people thought it was because just in the create had criticized Macron and the speech, I believe, like, people were kind of like pin, pinning that. I mean, it was also like an anime of all is in a mix of languages, including English, which kind of like, that raises a question about like,

“whether it has to be a certain percentage of not in the English language. But I think also,”

then, according to a friend of mine, that led to a lot of voters feeling like they weren't, they shouldn't vote for taste of things, especially in Europe. Which sucks, does that mean it was good? Yeah. But that because they were felt like it was, you know, they had to kind of punish France. And so there's all kinds of politicians behind the scenes. Yeah. So it is Eurovision. It is Eurovision. Yeah. I look, imagine this. And I'm saying imagine it for different administrations.

Imagine if the U.S. had to do this. Like, for like, if if if the Oscars were not American, if it's say the Oscars happen every year in Amsterdam. And we're trying to get American movies like attention that it's hard to get. Imagine the Trump administration. What movie? I mean, they would be picking. They'd be like, can we do sound afraid of them for the fourth year in a row? Like, yeah. Or whatever. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, a Brett, Brett Ratner's Rochaffer for where we definitely

film show for their submission, which did not, it got shortlisted. It did not get far. And it's fine.

“But it was like one of that year. There were, I think, a bunch of a kind of like star-eyed films”

about film and the magic of movies, right? And you're like, yeah, you can see them being like, this is what we got to do together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so when they're submitting a film, they do they tend to go more political or artier. Like, I can get all over the place.

I mean, I think it's always interesting to to look at what like China submits now, especially

recently, you know, like China has like increasingly had its own like enormously homegrown kind of like blockbuster, you know, world of blockbusters that make enormous amounts of money. And sometimes when you look at earlier, you have films of like, Zhang Yemo, you have films, you know, from these different filmmakers who just films like really well on the international circuit. And like in more recent years, these have just all been like some of which are just like, yes, like big blockbusters,

like the wandering earth to, you know, was their submission a few years ago, wolf warrior two, like a super nationalistic, like action movie. They're almost is this like, fuck you, like we don't need to play by your game anymore. It doesn't matter. Alternatively, so over the weekend, I saw Kukuhou, the, what do you believe me? The Japanese submission for best foreign film that also did get a best makeup Oscar and that movie, which is like Kabuki, Star's Born sort of thing,

mixed all the sense because it's about this sort of Japanese cultural heritage. And then in 2021, they submitted drive my car, which won. Yeah, and which got a best picture nomination as well.

Yeah, I mean, there is an interesting tension always between, I mean, Kukuhou was like a very

successful film in Japan, like an enormous hit. But yeah, it also feels like it is very much showcasing an idea of Japaneseness that, you know, should, should be pretty clear to audience about it. I should look to what the Japanese government is right now, and versus what it was during the drive my car year, like the administration's change. It's become a bit more, you know, conservative.

“And, you know, and I think that the one heartening thing about this Byzantine kind of like”

process, but the different countries having their own agendas, is that for many, many, many years, that was the only route that a non-English language, non-American or British film really had toward the kind of awards attention that yes, can lead to financial and, you know, success all that. Increasingly, these movies now are like, well, actually with ten best picture nominees to fill, like we could actually get them, it's okay if they don't get not, that their country doesn't

submit them, because maybe they'll do well anyway, you know, and obviously Paris, I broke the

dam in terms of being the first international film to win, no, it's win, it's just forever. I did a rough

tally, if anyone's curious of, and I could be wrong, because I might have missed something here there, but I only went back to the 70s. In the 70s, there were two non-English language films, nominated for Best Picture, both Swedish, Swedish, yeah, I'm a great surprise with yours. None in the 80s, had a single one. And granted this was back when they were only five best picture nominees for any given year. 95 had two in ill-postino, which was sort of a sentimental hit

“with. And obviously a formative, a plockercorn-style viewing experiment for a life is beautiful,”

obviously, which did win some things. Cratching Tiger in 2000, so they're more in the 2000s, or the Ots, Cratching Tiger, and then 2006 has two that I think are sort of like nebulous. One is letters from Eugenma, which is in Japanese and stars, Japanese actors, but it's directed by Clint Eastwood, and it's a Hollywood production, so that's kind of dubious, but that same you're also babble, which is a big international co-production with some big movie stars that

didn't Brad Pitt and Kate Blanchett, and then, you know, other segments that are not in English. The artist in 2011 also kind of dubious. Yes, yeah. Because it's a Harvey Weinstein production, but it's French filmmakers, but also it's silent for the first part of it. Yeah. And then something changes in 2012, and this is around when they start expanding the best picture, you know? Yeah, it was a 2010, was when they announced they were spending it. Yeah. So, I'm more the

Michael Hanukkah film about dementia that is one of the most harrowing movies you could ever sit through, but also beautiful. That broke through and got a best picture nomination, a best director nomination, and a best actress nomination. Then it took, then Rome happened, which again,

wins in 2019. In the 2020s, things have picked up, you know, if you think about the 80s had zero. In the 2020s alone, you could count minority by some extent drive my car, big, big one, two in 2022, which were all quiet in the western front, and triumphed with sadness, some in English, but not an American production. And now I move a fall, which I want a screenplay Oscar Emilia Paras, which is winning all this year's Oscars as well as last year's. And I'm

still here, so that was two in the best picture lineup in 2024, and we have two this year in secret agent and send them on the value. So, things seem to be progressing, only Parasite has won, but it's still great that all of these movies and more in other categories are like part of the

“party now. Yeah, and I think, you know, we can't talk about that without noting that at this point,”

the Academy is, I think, like, a quarter international, like, in terms of where they're based on their mother's idea. On their mother's side. And, you know, the Academy has made a really kind of, like, aggressive move to expand its membership, particularly to expand its membership in terms of diversity, which has been long been criticized for, and part of the way it's done that is by becoming more international, which you could speak to another testament to the sad state of America.

They're in the film industry where they just ran out of kind of people to invite who are not white men, I guess. Or, and there has been some criticism that I don't think can be found at anything but like a feeling right now, necessarily, is that for all of the good that making the branch, like the Academy as a whole more international, and that you bring in different filmmakers, more exciting films from all over the world, is that these people are also bringing in some other

prejudices. You know, and I know one thing that people are concerned about in terms of, like,

the performance of the nickel boys, or perhaps even sinners that ultimately, in March this year,

is that like, that stories about Black Americans might not be of interest to, like, 70-year-old French directors who were now part of the Academy, which is a white French director, I should say, which, like, again, is not based in any fact, but it's necessarily, but it's based on sort of lived experience and intuition based on what we know about various other countries,

“film industries, and yeah. And I think, you know, there is, it's a long been held as, like, a kind of,”

I'm glad, fact, though, it's actually not, it's, like, much more complicated than this, that, like, films about, you know, characters of color, just don't perform as well abroad. I think that, like, the numbers have actually proven that it's not the case, but it is long been used, especially with, like, big studio movies to justify, not spending on marketing and not, yeah, exactly. And kind of, like, not counting on these films, giving them as big a boost, as you

would, a blockbuster starring a white actor. I think about the, the poster of 12 years of slave, in which it's just, like, Brad Pitt, is the only character on it? Yep. Yeah, as a kind of, amazing famous one. Literally horrifying. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's, let's turn our attention to the secret agent, a film that addresses tricky issues of race and class and politics. And yeah, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a really dense movie that, while a period piece speaks to,

“there are no, but I think one of the reasons that I think it is done so well is that it also is”

this kind of, like, big swaggering kind of, like, like, at certain points, it's an action movie, at certain points, it's a thriller, you know, like does colorful. It is, like, yeah, you know, and I think, you know, Griff brought up a great point when we were talking about Marty Supreme, which is, like,

we were talking about Marty Supreme with Griffin Dunn, though. Yeah. He just always comes by. Actually,

we're always like, here he is again, Griffin Dunn. Griffin Dunn, if you ever want to come on the podcast, I would love to have you. That, like, this feels like a 70s, it has a bit of this, like, muscular 70s, like, you know, new Hollywood swagger, like, in terms of, not just it's setting, you know, and that's the, like, the really, like, rich saturated colors that it has, the feel, like, they feel so amazing. And the, like, like, it feels, they're, their aspects to it that feel a

little bit, like, the conversation or something like that. And, but also, like, you watch, like, coastless, governs as Z from that era, like, it also has that vibe, which I grant is not American, but, like, has that fun, shaggy 70s energy that's also sophisticated intellectually and politically. And that's a really interesting, heavy mix, I think. Yeah. And then, you know, you have Wagner Mora, who, I've seen it so many things before, you know, he has been kind of, like, working in Hollywood

in American production. There's a lot in more recent years, you know, including, not, well, he was in Narcos, then Netflix kind of, like, one of those really big, and I, like, there wasn't, there's some controversy that a Brazilian was playing famous Colombian Palauasco. Yeah, that would make sense. Yeah, I think there was a little bit, some people

from Colombia were like, wait a second. Yeah. And then, you know, he was in so war. He was in dope

he gets out of the little yellow, like, VW beetle in this, in his, like, an open sandals, and his, like, scruff, and his, like, polo shirt open to a very 70s, like, found his chest. I was like, oh, wait, Dr. Morris, like the most handsome man alive. He has a, like, safe quality. I, like, when he's on screen, I feel safe. Yeah. And I feel calm. And he's so anchors everything in this, like, very chaotic place, both politically, but also in terms of,

like, there was just a party happening at all times. And when you're with him, his soft,

“soothing ASMR voice. No, there's a warmth to him. Yeah. And, and actually, I think that's what”

made his performance as Escobar so compelling, was because he was, like, really sympathetic. I mean, you know, this man was doing horrible things, but compared to the cops on that show, you're like, but he's so has that quality there describing? No, he's part, I mean, he's perfectly casted. Yeah. And I mean, I think, like, I was rewatching it, you know, in preparation for this,

and that there's a little scene where he first, because he's, like, returned to Receifa,

which is where director Kleberman does a video, is from, and he said to all of his movies as I'd from, uh, background. Uh, it, he picks up his child, which is the reason one of the reasons he's come back to this, to this, his hometown. And he, uh, is like driving with his son in the back seat, and, like, listening to his son talk about, like, jaws, which he's obsessed with. And just, like, reaches his hand back to, like, hold his hands hand. And there's something that he's just so, like,

very, unfortunately, just speaks to this enormous affection, you know, um, that you believe it so much. It does feel, I think a lot of this film feels, and not in a dreamy way, but it feels like it is informed by, uh, videos, like, memories of this era in this, like, you know, a lot of this film is a bit about this child, um, and kind of, like, how much we retain in terms of memory, uh, and how much gets lost. And, yeah, especially with, like, no physical records. And, uh, I think there

is, like, that touch of memory, not in a way that's distant, but in a way that feels like warm,

like you're remembering this, like, more moment from your childhood. You mentioned the first scene,

“which I think is so important, and is one of these, like, opening scenes that serves a sort of”

a metaphor for the, the film as a whole, right, in which we just describe it as, like, there's, uh, he arrives in this little, it's like a, a little gas station on the road. And there's a dead body that's, like, just they are covered by a cardboard box, basically. Right. And the cops arrive, and it sort of seems like they're going to inspect this body, but instead they just take him down, they drive down. Yeah. And you can sort of, it's incredibly tense, but

is also, there's this, like, unspeakable thing that we cannot speak about that's just in the background, we don't know this guy's name. I think we learned that he's, like, a thief. Yeah, we're trying to rob this station. Yeah. Otherwise, is not a presence in the rest of the film. It's just this kind of thing that hangs over it. I think, well, there's a lovely image of Mora and this, the lovely yellow car, and this landscape behind him, and then right, you know, 15 feet away is a rotting dead body.

And, and that's the kind of feeling that we're trying to eat throughout the rest of the film is like, you know, that that seems to have been at least in this movie's, you know, memory or estimation, like the sort of bizarre juxtaposition of life in parts of Brazil that was like, this loveliness, this warmth, this vibrancy, carnival is happening. All this stuff is happening, and yet next door, or down the street, or right in front of me, is this, the rot of government,

the violence of government, you know, all this stuff, and, and, but it's not heavy-handed when

“it does that, which I think is, yeah, it's, it's hard to do. I do think one of the reasons this”

movie has performed so well, despite not being conventional by any means in the terms of like the path it takes is that it is about the experience of living under a kind of a dictatorship, right, which is to say, these certain things are so fundamentally broken in ways that make life like unstable and hard to count on, right? Like, yeah, the police come around, and instead of doing their job, they just like shake you down for money. Uh, the, there's just so much

naked corruption. Like, what we learn about the main character whose name is Armando, but goes by Marcello, or Marcello, sorry, for throughout most of the movie, is that, you know, like,

he basically ran into this like corrupt businessman who is also like had ties like very high up

in the, to the government, and it basically destroyed his life. Um, but like, to show the ways that all of those things are so broken, and at the same time, day-to-day life continues, right? Like carnival continues, uh, like, it, like the bustle outside. People are taking piano lessons, you know? Yeah, the piano lessons people are going to jobs. Yeah, they're going to see jobs, or the Omen, which features in quite some kind of podcast about awards shows. Exactly.

even as it is, like, a kind of, but gilingly weird movie, uh, for ways we can get into later,

it is about the kind of that juxtaposition of living under this totally kind of like, like,

“like, a government that is like thrown out all of the rules. Uh, you know, and I think there's”

one point where Marcello's character is like, is describing what happened to him, and he's just so, he's not outraged in like a kind of like blistering like angry way. He's outraged in that way of just being like, I'm so angry that I should have to even find myself in this situation. It is so ingest, but also so absurd. Yeah. And I think the way that the film is careful to, you know, we have our hero, we have our antagonists, but even those antagonists are given these

curious humanizing anecdotes and vignettes and, you know, the the young assassin and, you know,

his, his older colleague and these kind of corrupt policemen in town. Like, yes, they're bad guys, but also like, they're also kind of looking out for each other and they're, they're trying to get buy in this horrid system that has sort of put them in this place. I mean, they're feeding off of it

“certainly more than other people are, but like the way that it shows the sort of sprawl of, you know,”

life during wartime essentially, like life, you know, that no very few people involved are these kind of cinematic, monolithic villains. They, they are people who have been to varying degrees corrupted by something above them.

David, yep, you don't have a lot of shared interests, you know, common interest film.

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but not spirit. But here's the good news. While stuck on the raft, Marvel's high-tech C-Jail? Yes. He's sleeping on a Lisa. Sure. A mattress fit for a Rulk. It's about something that we can obviously relate to now, but it's also specifically about not only this past military dictatorship, but also the Bolsonaro regime. And Wagnermore spoke about this

“when we saw him accept that award. Especially given, I think, a certain amount of national envy”

here about what happens. How the response was to the Bolsonaro government and the end of the

Bolsonaro government versus maybe certain more local. I mentioned Aquarius. The first of his films that

I saw in 2016 at Can. And that is set in the present day with the great Sonya Braga in living in Racif and that's very much smaller about some basically government officials trying to get her out of her beloved condo or her apartment. So they can do some like gentrification, redistricting, whatever. And that compared to something like back-around, which is this violent pushback against predatious capitalism and whatever. And secret agent, which is much more forceful and it's

sort of political intent. Aquarius seems sort of quaint. And yet that was the movie during the Bolsonaro government that had this huge protest at the, at the, you know, I mean, it was people

were in support of the film, but they had, you know, banners and all this stuff. And like, yeah,

this has been on his mind, the filmmaker's mind for a long time. And it's interesting to see that in some ways, only after the Bolsonaro era had somewhat ended, did he feel like he could go and make the film, even though it's a period piece about a different regime that was sort of more

“full-bodied about what that. Yeah. I think it's also like, it ties in a lot to a documentary he”

made three years ago called Pictures of Ghosts, which was about Racifah and like, in this case, like a lot of his memories, but also specifically memories of like the movie palaces there, which is another theme that kind of ties into what happens in this movie. It was a film I really liked.

But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like one thing about this film also is like, I have

kind of like broadly described it as a movie about like acts of resistance. And I think it is, but I think it is much more deliberately tying together. I mean, there's one part where, you know, Armando arrives at this apartment complex that is like kind of he's going to be sheltered there. And it turns out to be filled with all of these people, yeah, like who are on the run from different things. And I think that is something that is very pointed about, which is to be like,

there are some people here who have run a foul of the military dictatorship. There are other people who have come from like Angola. There is someone who is on the run from his like mean, unlike kind of like abusive, like, yeah, homophobic, like father and uncle. There are people who are there for all different reasons. It is not just like, and you know, they have a conversation where one of them calls them refugees and someone else is like, we don't use that word. He's like,

what else would you call us? It is less about kind of like taking, like, as opposed to say, like one about after another, which opens, right, with like these kind of like acts of like deliberate, kind of like, uh, acts of activism, right, against the government. This is about people who have all been kind of like oppressed in different ways. And like, it is about the kind of like sanctuary they find together. But it is about like the people who help them. Yeah, yeah, and you get the

sense, you know, that Armando like he is antagonist. This corrupt is using the levers of corrupt government against him directly, whereas in other of these sort of refugees cases, it's not so much that their antagonist has political sway or access. It's just that they can take advantage of a somewhat lawless system where they're like, you know, they could disappear you or they could, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're bodies lying on the ground and so in front of gas stations,

like who's going to really prosecute, you know. Um, but yeah, the sense that like that this rod has not just sort of affected those who have direct or even somewhat indirect ties to the government, but just really, it just, it just affects how people view life and live life. And, um, and then that he colors that with like Dona Sebastian, which is such a great character and, and then the helpers, you know, is so nice because it's like what a testament to people doing that, then people

“doing it now. Yeah. And that's a real parallel to one. Yeah. And I think it probably is something”

that resonated with people a lot. Um, before we get into spoiler territory, I do want to shout out to, uh, one of my favorite ongoing threads in this film. I mean, one of them beyond like in a broader

distinctive, um, and like kind of like diverse and like singular celebration, right? Uh, up to an

including carnival, even while he's in this incredibly situation, incredibly stressful situation. And there is a scene in which Armando walks out into the street and carnival is happening. Everyone is partying and he like joins us a little bit. Yeah. He kind of like shimmies into the crowd in a way that's lovely. My other favorite thread that is ongoing here, um, it's just a kind of constant reminder of just be like, people be fucking. Yeah. They're like multiple scenes in which they

just kind of like walk in or like spot some of people. Yeah. Having sex in, uh, sometimes public pace, but a bunch of public places. Yeah. You know, no, it's true. I like, yeah, like that like life, you know, life carries on. Yeah, yeah, they don't know. It isn't to say that like these repressive, you know, elements should be tolerated, but like, but yeah, there's something survives. Yeah, life does not stop. Yeah.

All right. We're going to talk spoilers for the secret agent. This section lasts about 23 and a half

“minutes if you want to skip ahead. Well, biggest spoilers about the secret agent. Now that we are”

we're over the spoiler. Well, he's not a secret agent. No, I was going to say that is like, uh, one of the funniest things to be like, where does the title come from? And you're like, it comes from, I had to look up the name of this movie because I could not recognize it. Like, it comes from a movie that is playing at his father-in-laws cinema, which is also an important location throughout the film that they keep returning to. Uh, it is the 1973 spy spoof, the man from aquapucco, starring

Jean-Paul Blomondo and Jacqueline Bissette. Oh, okay. Yeah. I looked through the credits for it. But yeah. So, so that I suppose, uh, in Brazil was released as the secret agent. Yeah. And so that is where the name comes from. Yeah. But I mean, like, when the movie starts, there is this moment where you're expecting him to turn out to be a spy or like, uh, undercover part of song. I didn't like, uh, yeah. On the graphical resistance. Yeah. But I also think that there, I mean, maybe I'm

maybe sitting in the back of the car with his dad that kid is looking at his mysterious father

“who disappeared for a while. I mean, like, I think he might be a secret agent. You know, like,”

there's this sort of like, all, almost projected from son to father about this and like, you know, all the movie theater stuff is so much from Phil has own life and like, um, I mean, that, that shot that pushes out through the window and looks at that, like, it is like one of the most stunning shots of last year. Like, it's so good. And I make this comparison favorably. I realize it might not sound that way to other people. I see a lot of Roma in there,

like the, like, the sense of memory stuff and like the grandals, you know, movie palace kind of stuff. And like, a real, like, let me do the best I can, I can to make manifest, like, you know, like you were saying like distinct memories of like an egg on a table or, you know, whatever. Like, the way that my dad looked in the rearview mirror. You know, the drawings he makes of, um, like the, the, the, the, the son is obsessed with jaws and keeps drawing these amazingly adorable

photos of, our, our pictures of sharks, including like the poster, like there's an incredible

rendition of the jaws poster. Like, the shark coming up. Yeah. But it's funny to remember, like, and I don't think it's overstated in the film. Like, that in the States, too, when that movie came out, like, it, like, people had a really hard time dealing with the violence of that movie and the, and the suspense of that movie, like, people vomiting and running out of the theater and fainting and all that, that was real. Yeah. Um, no, I like that, the people who kind of, like,

they watch the moment and they come out and they're like, I might be possessed in the lobby, just like a background thing going on. Um, I appreciate that. Yeah. So, so this is a movie that is not about a secret agent. We, but for a long stretch, because he is like, operating under the kind of, like, certain, like, what we expect from someone who is like, maybe undercover on the run, but undercover, you know, like, yes, he is meeting with contacts. They're setting him up with different

“things. He's like, they're setting him up with a job at, like, the identification card office, right?”

And that makes him put him the orbit of the corrupt chief of police, which he doesn't want it to know about. There's a sense of mission here. Yes. Yes. And then that all kind of slowly dissolves the further we get, because we learn, he's not like, the thing he's trying to achieve is intensely personal, right? And like, what we're doing here is not some kind of, like, mission on behalf of some other force. It is him. It's an act of memory. It is him trying to get this card, this identification

card of his mother and the contacts of which we do not learn until the very end of the movie. Yeah. But he is willing to risk so much, like his personal safety, to find this card before he and his son flee the country. And because there was a very real chance and it happened where, like, their

memory would, they would be totally kind of wiped from existence in a way, as if they were never

is when we learn, we, we do not learn until literally years in the future, you know, in the Koda, which skips ahead to, you know, a present day where we have his son now played by Wagner Mora.

“Yeah. In this incredible, I think, like, double role that is, like, very carefully delineated.”

But he explains that his grandmother, our mother's mother, was the daughter of, like, the housekeeper

in this house. And basically, at 14, was impregnated by the son, the 17-year-old son, had a baby,

the baby looked white enough, as he said. Like, he kind of, like, lays that out, right? His mother was nicknamed India. He was beautiful. So they kept him. They took him away from her. Right. And she had no choice about keeping him, or had no say about that at all. And they raised him in this kind of, like, more moneyed family. So that was it. Like, the only Tracy has of his mother's existence is this identity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. When he's playing the son. Yes.

Did, I've heard two schools have thought about this. Do you think he's playing it is gay? I, someone mentioned that to me as a, as a, as a possible reading. I, the, the, the time every watch at this time with that in mind. I feel like it's, it's not there, or anything there.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I feel like, oh, no, it's so interesting that they hit that he had the son

VK when he's an adult. And I was like, oh, was that a thing in the movie? I don't think that, I, I don't think it is the way he plays that character repels that reading, but I do not think it is like, obviously, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't think there's text. Yeah. I don't think

“that people say it to me with such conviction. I think that if that were the case, I would, I,”

I guess you could understand it as like just further evidence of like, look how far the countries come, like, you know, like, like, like progress has been made in some arena, not in others, you know, whatever, like that this gay out gay man, whatever. You know, but it's just like a funny little added theory about that at the end of that movie. One thing that I love about that scene and how it's scripted is that when he's recounting some of his experiences, he missed remembers

things that we have already seen happen in the film where I think he talks about how he had wanted to go see jaws. His father says absolutely not, he's like, you know, like he already has nightmares all the time. It's a grandfather who wants to bring him to see it. Right. And then in his mind, and then when he retells it, he reverses that, which, you know, goes back to all of these themes about memory and, and how like if we don't speak the things, if we don't have the ID card,

if we don't talk about the man under the cardboard at the gas station, then we, we lose these things, and we don't have them at all. And then we repeat them. Yeah, you know, because we repeat the

“bad stuff because we didn't learn from them. Yeah, no, they're, I think there is a tremendous”

worry about what the cost is of just a facing history. Like, like obviously time goes on, right? Like the, it's not supposed to be the movie theater, the, the movie keeps taking, like, returning to. But another movie theater, the theater where he says he saw jaws is now the blood bank that he's like working at as a doctor. Yeah. And that's like a real thing from pictures of ghosts. Like that was really a movie theater that, that the director had gone to see movies at as a kid and is now a blood

bank. But yeah, like I think there is so much about the ways in which it's easy to kind of like manipulate the record, historical record, and then to manipulate memory that way, right? Because like, I mean, even, like, the, it's like so, it's, it's kind of, uh, more like under delivers it, and it makes it even more devastating when he tells Flavia this, this researcher who has been listening to tapes of his father, you know, like you remember my father better than I do. Like even this

horrible image of like him as a child on the day that his father turns out to be killed, shot in the street, like waiting for his father to pick him up, you know, he tells a story and he's like, I don't remember it myself. I know, I've created like this, you know, kind of like, like, stand in memory because my grandfather told me this, but like, I don't remember it. Yeah, and I do think that there is, uh, definitely, I like, I currently like to do this setup

strumming movies as long as it says, but there is a worst movie, worst version of this movie that's like, we see him gun down. The boy is just in out of reach and he falls dead on the street in front of his son. Even like, it's into cut, like he's trying to get there. Yeah, it's way to like,

he never knows. Instead, like, in a way that I think really does risk alienation with American viewers,

well, a lot of, and it did, in me and first I was confused, is like, we only find out that he got shot and killed from a photograph when the movie has fully moved into the present tense, you know, and we never see that there is no resolution to even did it happen that day, like an hour later, to 10 minutes later, like we see the one assassins he has dead colleague and then kind of disappeared.

you know, it, it, it, it's, it's so blunt, but I think that's so effective because that's

exactly how, in some ways, it was, I was experienced by the sun. It was not in sight. It was just something he heard about. And maybe maybe he's that saw that newspaper photograph at some point,

“but like, it's an abstraction to him in a way. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, like, the, the kind of”

most outsized version of that is Harry Leg, right, which is the story that the newspaper is run with and it's like kind of outrageous tabloid, you know, like supernatural story where they're claiming that this, um, Leg, just like, a kind of like severed leg is menacing people who are cruising in this various parts. And like, everyone who reads the story, the newspaper story can be between the lines and know that it's like people who are cruising, but like, um, yes. And then

this leg attacks people. And this is like a huge newspaper story, like all of the newsboys are like clamoring for that because they know it's going to sell so well. And then when you get that kind of final scene in which Bobby, like the, one of the two assassins is like killed and they put the newspaper over him, you see the headline, it's like Carnival deaths are up to like 91. Yeah. And you're like, oh, that was sort of a distraction from like the actual ongoing violence that

it's happening, you know? And the leg in question is right, it's alluded to that that that's the leg of someone that was killed, illegally by the police or at least disposed of, right, except then when they build out the Harry leg mythology, eventually Harry leg is the one stealing

“the leg from the morgue, so then it becomes like, you're like, wait, are there multiple legs out there?”

What is going on? But yeah, I mean, like, when you actually see the rendering of Harry leg, like, like a, like a stop motion monster movie, right? Like jumping around and like kicking people in the face. So a shocking scene, just because it is so, it's almost like you are in a movie within the movie. Yeah. It looks completely different at field. The music is different, like the music is like monster, like throwback monster movie music. And it's really funny, but it's also funny that it is left

to like pretty late in the movie also, like, you know, like the ways in which this movie unfolds and the way in which it event, like it waits so long to let you know why Armando is on the run and like being hunted, you know, like has like literally a hit out on his head, you know? And some might say, I mean, I have heard the criticism, it does try patience a bit, like that it's not as fast-paced as a movie, as it maybe sells itself as the beginning.

It takes a long time to really find out what the hell is going on. Yeah, no, it is, it does not unfold in a conventional way. Which again is why it's a price. Yeah. Right, right, right. Right, right. Right, right. Right, right. Right, right. Right, right, right. Right, right, right, right.

“Yeah, so I think like that scene where Armando finally just talks, like, to the head of this kind of,”

like, you know, group of like helping people get out of the country, like just tells the story of what happened. It is so good, like, you know, I don't know what we, I don't know if you've mentioned, but like, Wagnermore is obviously nominated for a best actor, like what his like snippet is going to be, but I have to imagine it's going, it has to be from that scene. I would think he's so right in it. Like the, like the particular version of outrage he expresses, yes,

is like, it's like I am so upset that not just what was done to me, yes, but like that it should have been able to happen at all, like like I am so offended by by the kind of like brush corruption of this man. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you can see where his nomination comes in. I think also the the Coda with him playing another character helps, but also I think the real triumph of the Academy

as it regards to this movie is like the best casting nomination. Like it's the first time

they've done this category, everyone was like, well, how's this going to work? Is it just going to be like, it is it turns out five best picture nominees, hopefully in the years to come, they can think a bit more broadly about like what specifically is working casting? Why is it a movie? It doesn't just have to be, I like that ensemble from a best picture nominee, but in the secret agents case, they could have gone a different direction with casting. There were, you know,

four other choices, but like this movie is so beautifully populated, like from the woman who does the interviewing to Donna Sebastian, to these gangsters, to the kid, to the leg, to whatever, like it's just, it's, and I would have to imagine that the branch nominating it for casting has not worked with this Brazilian casting director before she's, they're not a colleague of, you know, there's, but they just see how beautifully, you know, everyone fits so perfectly into this tapestry.

I think that's, for me, that's the coolest nomination to go. Yeah, it is really, I mean,

because the casting is amazing. Like this, this movie has an enormous cast of like

memorable faces and voices and, you know, and bodies, honestly, like one of the things I love is just, like, how many bodies, like, and types of bodies you see on screen? But yeah, like, these are, there are a lot of actors that he's worked with before, there are a lot of repeat faces from back or out, for instance, like he clearly has, yeah, and then maybe, terrific in this, like,

like, who's like, world war two, like, you know, like, it wasn't just the Nazis who fled to South America, there were, there was tons of other people from Europe who ended up there, like, and that he doesn't, like, turn that into some sort of bit of didactic, like, this is also part of the tapestry of this city and, and this country, it's like, no, no, that's another movie, but I just want to touch on it briefly, you know, and effectively.

Yeah, and just also the ways in which the police chief just, kind of like, has no interest in understanding what this man's actual background is, they're just like, show us your scars,

“like, yeah, like, you must be a soldier, and you know, like, he wasn't, this is not where”

those scars came from, but, yeah, that scene is terrific. Special mention for Dona Sebastiana. Yeah. Oh, she's so good. Maria.

Hi, Maria. Hi, Maria. Yeah, she's amazing. That's the one thing, that would be like,

I mean, it would take a lot for the Oscars to pay attention to a performance that's, like, that far down in the, this is why we need our special area. We need to start off there. That's true. Like, she's like the perfect. Yeah. She's so wonderful. She's so, she, like, especially contrast to Wagner, just like, she's so tiny and, do we know anything about her? She was buck her out as well. She, I think she's listed as an actress,

artisan, and seamstress, and Wikipedia, but I just based on Call of the Character. Yeah, like, I, I think the first, like, the background seems to be her first acting credit. So, you know, she was just someone that he found, and she seems to have an amazing, kind of, like, storied life, and her character has an amazing storied life. One of my favorite lines of hers as when she says, you know, like, I did, I did three things in Italy. When I was in Italy during the war,

and I'm not going to tell you what they are, but I wanted to do them. Yeah. You're like, oh, she's been through so much. She's done so much. What did you think of the, the sort of wrap around story with the two researchers who you don't really know, they kind of pop in for the first time, maybe halfway through, and you don't really know why they're listening to these tapes at first, it was like, are they making a podcast? No, I mean, it isn't wild. That is, like, even more so than

“Harry, like, I think is like the wildest jump when, like, halfway through the movie, we suddenly”

leaped like decades to these two characters have never seen before who are listening to audio tapes.

And even the shock of seeing modern technology, you're like, well, wait a second, like, yeah. But I think that, like, the way that it works so well when it arrives, because it's like, you know, this mounting worry that there will be no kind of acknowledgement or reckoning with this past at all, because in the present, in the 70s, present tense of the movie, like, they all feel so swallowed up by this thing, that there's a sense of comfort and sadness

when you're like, okay, so like, this is all, at least known by these two, you know, researchers or whatever, like, at least someone is, but I don't think just becomes, I think for one of them, it is like, the thing she does for her job, you know, it is like unusual that Flavia is like, there are still people attached to this that I can find through great effort, right? Like, but that that's, but that that's a job at all seems of value, right? Like, even that is like,

right, you're like, all of this to the grace of, you know, this, yes, like daughter of a wealthy corrupt, that Pala family who decided to invest her money into this kind of underground,

including taking documentation, which is never explained why she is invested in that.

But yeah, you're like, oh, that is the only reason why we have this chorus of voices, you know, documenting this time, because like, one of the things about being an underground kind of like, this underground world is that there is no kind of public facing history on that, right?

“Like, like, it is at the time you have to live in secret. This is all being done in secret.”

So yeah, those audio tapes become, you know, the only record. And I think you feel in the movie, the delicacy with which, like, you know, like real historical record versus like the kind of history that then gets created officially. Yeah, and I do think that that kind of present tense framing device, like runs the risk of being a little bit like not gimmicky, but a bit like, like, clawing or something. And I've seen some criticisms of this movie that kind of saved something

to that effect. Like, we didn't really need this. It kind of it telegraphs what the movie is about too much. I kind of, on second being, I disagree. I think it, I think it's deployed effectively and and with restraint enough that that even the sort of more sentimental ending with this meeting of these two people who, you know, seem to be bridging all these different divides. And I think it works because similar to the sort of unseen death of Amanda, like, like, the direction the

writing doesn't sort of just overplay it. It's, yeah, no, I think one of the things, you know, that makes it so heartbreaking is the way that more uplay is that second character, you know, like in this, he's kind of indifferent to it. Or just like, he's like, I cannot pretend to like feel these

like, like, he is only a concept to me now. Like, you understand him as a person more than I do.

“You're like, that's such a sad thing. It's also a very real thing. I think when I've done documentary”

projects and stuff, I've interviewed people and this, that happens where it's like, you know,

you know more about the subject than they do, you want something from them that they can't always

give you both on an emotional level and on a textural level of, like, I need this for my work, or just my personal self knowledge, self satisfaction. But like, life moved on for him and like, both Armando and Flavia are doing a homecoming, you know, to find something, you know, he's looking for this card, this identity card for his mother. Flavia's looking to like just kind of make a connection with this family she's been essentially, you know, listening to or one member of. And the kind of,

yeah, he basically tells her, he's like, oh, I don't know, life moved on, you know, like, yes, I know it was a big thing and I appreciate that you care about it. But like, I can't dwell on that, you know.

“And I think also he's just like, that's just not the life, you know, like, I was raised by my”

grandfather, he is who I think of as my father, like that. Before we, I do want to talk a bit more

about Wagnermore, but before we do that, I did want to ask you. In light of our earlier conversation, do you feel like this movie is built with international audiences in mind? I doesn't feel that way to me. I mean, I can't infer anyone's intent behind the camera, but like, it, I think because of the sort of like, the plotting that is a bit obfuscating the strangeness of it, the deep from what I understand, like this sort of,

I hate to use this fucking term, but like the sort of deep roster of like Easter eggs for like, like references to Brazilian culture and history and very specific stuff. No, I, I think it's made for Brazilians because obviously they're the ones who are going to,

“you know, feel it most potently. Yeah, I think, you know, it's great that it does,”

it has appeal beyond that. Yeah, I mean, I, one of the things I appreciate is that it does not kind of do the very heavy-handed, like, um, here's a note. I mean, like, even the opening, like, crawl of text, right, is like, uh, it's Brazil in 1977, a top period of great mischief and is not like, the military dictator, oh, like, you know, I like, um, so I had a funny thing happen at my screening. Yeah. Um, you know, they're pretty solemn ending. Um, the credits roll a woman stands up and

shouts, "Viva Brazil." Okay. All right. Like, "To the crowd." Yeah. And it sort of got me thinking about how the characters in this movie kind of talk about how much they hate Brazil constantly. Like, they're trying to, you know, it's like, they're very put upon living in this place where they are oppressed. And yet the movie so clearly loves Brazil. Yes. Like, they're parties in the streets. It's so colorful. It has a sense of national pride. Yeah. And nobody is standing up at the end of

one battle after another and saying, like, God bless America. Well, you don't know that. Yeah. And, and I just kind of, I was cheering on Team USA in the figure skating, you know, like, trying to limpics, like, like, like, like, I can understand some degree of that duality. I mean, like, obviously, in this case, it's much more about, like, uh, national identity than it is, like, these, you know, kids are skating well, but like, you know, how does what is the song that

one battle after another, like, ends up? Yeah. So I think, like, maybe we're also in a place right now where maybe most of us are not in clients to stand up in here. You know, I think we have less America. We have a, we're having a hard time understanding what national pride means and how to have national pride. If we sure have it at all. And I just found it kind of inspiring that this

artist was able to make a movie that is both self-critical and proud of it. Yeah. The more I

talk about this movie, the more I think it is, like, just a stone-cold masterpiece. Yeah. No, I think it's a trend as maybe. And I think you are totally correct. I think, like, one of its greatest strengths is the, like, boundless wells of affection. It has for the culture and people and landscape of this culture. And the sadness about the fact that it has to be so marred and derailed and harmed and, you know, and made ugly on the international stage by these, this cabal of horrible,

you know, military, you know, politicians and stuff. Yeah. There's a, there's a, in that long loop for sale, there's also a sadness and a defiance and a rage there, you know. But what I wanted to do is not the chemical management of the studio. The semester-by-day laptop, the software, the internet, is a master's real-time. I say, you can say, you can say the back of the door. Yeah, you have a story about it, right? But you don't believe it.

Egal. Thou bar word "fellus" for a track. Make the whole, just like this story. And when

Hold it, then go to the back. Yes, cos, let's go. All right. Wagnermore. Yeah. There is, like, a part of me that is, like, if anyone pulls an upset in, in best actor, which everyone has been, like, it's, Timmy's, you know, like, Timmy's going to get it. It would be Wagner who, I don't know that any of us would have called as, like, the, uh, a nominee, you know, like, even a few months before, like, uh, that, like, watching him kind of, like, rise through the ranks in terms of, like, all of

these kind of, like, the praise he was getting, but also certain precursor words are, like, oh, it's going to, it's going to happen. He's going to get on this. Yeah. They clearly liked that movie. The beat to the academy. And I do think that, you know, usually we think of a, a vote split have happening between people from the same movie. But in this case, like, can two front runners in Shalame and to Caprio presumably, can they split it? And, and there comes this, and, you know,

I, yeah, I could see it. I mean, I think that last year, yes, the conversation was very much, like, Mike Evers, uh, to me more, but I think that Fernando Torres from I'm still here. I think she came pretty close, you know, she had me when the golden glow. She won the glow, yeah, which, you know,

that doesn't always mean anything. But like, there was a moment. I think if that movie had had

two, three more weeks, yeah, momentum, it would have been a much, much tougher competition. It was just that I'm still here sort of arrived kind of late in, in the consciousness, uh, for a lot of voters,

“whereas I think that secret agent has a lot more time to linger for a variety of, you know, like,”

it was at can, you know, a while ago, uh, neon did a good job of making sure people saw it. I mean, that's reflected in the amount of nominations it got, um, and so that means that morea is probably way more front of mind than for an antidote as well. The, the history of actors winning in languages, uh, in performance that are in languages other than English is like, it's a fairly limited one, you know, though, as, as you mentioned, like, they're, like, we are in a moment of, like,

a much more kind of, like, slow, long, long, and coming, uh, opening up of, of, not just best picture, but these other categories to, to, uh, non-English language films. We had, you, you

shouldn't, young for minority, right? Yeah, as always all Donna. Sure. Of course. Yeah. That is largely

a Spanish speaking role, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. And then, I don't, you go back to, like, Marion Coutillard, uh, prepared to, there are some angels in this city. Yeah, Roberto Penini. Yeah. I'm, um, unforgettable. Um, yeah. But, like, uh, you know, if you go and sit in the old Oscar on the tour, you can still feel him dancing on the seats behind you. Yeah. I guess, yeah. I do wonder, believe that there's been a whole goddamn Olympics in Italy,

and they have not sent him fallen down a fucking ski jump hill or, uh, doing a prize. Yeah,

“like, like, like, what does he do? He's talking over the place. Yeah, why isn't he the mascot?”

They're giving all the winners this little, like, stuffed, stoked or, like, weasel or whatever, it's like, no, which would be Penini. No, did he do that, uh, acceptance speech for nothing? I know. I wonder if he's fallen out of, like, favor, yeah. Yeah, this truth is, I have not kept up with what Roberto Penini has been up to lately. So what? Guess what? Yeah. Our guest next week. We're going to, we're going to look this up and it's going to be like, he is a serial release.

He is a close advisor to Georgia Maloney. Like, um, um, what, but I do think that, um, like, one thing that Mora has as an advantage is that he has been in, he, like, lives in LA with his family. You know, he has been in a bunch of, uh, American productions. Like, he is someone that, like, crafts people are aware of, and our, and our course was big, and it was a very popular show. Like, that was, like, one of those, like, Netflix giving one of those flickers of, like, the last

gas, some auto culture, right? Like, um, every once in a while, Netflix is like, one of the last places capable of pulling that off. The tractor being pulled in, like, middle aged dad. Exactly. Oh, here we go. Yeah. Oh, then you're like, yeah. You hear people talking about it in the wild,

which is not always the case. No. You're Netflix. No, that definitely is to his advantage.

“That's true. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, do I think it's going to happen? I don't know that I'm feeling”

that, but like, uh, I, I think if, if there is an upset, it would be him. Like, uh, if someone does not, yeah. No, I think a hundred percent, and I do think that, like, to caprio's disadvantage is, like, for a certain kind of more, like, like a seafood tea, of, like, uh, we gave that kid the thing ten years ago. He's not a kid anymore. Like, like, he's part of the club. You know, banks all these young models, and it makes $20 million

a movie. Like, I don't want to give him another award. Yeah. And then Timming, it's like, oh, he's too young and, like, cool in my daughter's obsessive, whatever, you know, where is here comes this, like, solid man, you know, like, but like, warmth, a warmth kind of nice masculinity, you know, in this, like, big, like, even in the movie, there are characters like, see, that is a man. I could, I could see all members of, you know, different, you know, quadrants of the, of the academy,

being like, that's our guy. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be thrilling. I mean, that would be thrilling. I would be, I'm, I'm, I think I'm still kind of weirdly rooting for Shalema, even though, like,

I'd be very worried. She'd be on to a piece of cardboard outside a guest. She would just put

herself there, just, like, kind of called it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So, you know, I, I, I would not be

“sad if that happens. No offense to Timmy, who I think is incredible and Marty Supreme, but”

the closer we get to the ceremony, I mean, we're only a few weeks away. I am in full, like, just surprised me, mode. Yeah. Like, after watching the spirit of words, we're, like, it was, like, the winners were, like, kind of like, okay, sort of, train dreams for director, and, you know, it felt kind of, I mean, I was thrilled for Roseburn winning, but like, okay, you know, like, I would, I mean, if she wanted the Oscars, holy, holy cow, that would be crazy. Yeah. But, like,

I just, I want surprises down and Mora would be both that, but also something I could actually,

like, root for. Yeah. Before we go, I wanted to do our weekly ill postino corner. Oh, yeah.

Okay. Yeah. I'll do the electrodes to strap to Allison's head. Well, I don't have the leather on the time now, but I do have, so I did some digging. Yeah. Um, to try and find this study. Yeah. So, you went to the record's office, posed to someone else. Yeah. Well, I actually, you know, I did a little bit of search through the literature. Sure. I mean, you are a research professional sort of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I should also say that a blanky on the

subreddit also dug this up, so it's not like, it was an incredible feat of research, but so anyway, well, maybe we should remind people what actually wasn't undergrad. I did a lot of psychic experiments for money. They would, like, literally pay you cash for you come in and participate in this, and one of the most involved ones that I did, which paid more money than the other ones, um, for obvious reasons as, uh, is that I got electrodes strapped to me and I had to wear headphones,

and then I was, I watched, like, I had like 15 or 20 minutes of ill postino with the subtitles on because we established this was years after that movie. Yeah, years after, but I don't know how they ended up. They landed on ill postino. Yeah. And then every once in a while, I would hear like a loud

noise in the headphones, or I would get a mild electric shock, and then afterwards, and they never

“would. And then they would go home. I know. I think they did then quiz me about details in the movie.”

So I think the idea was that it was supposed to affect, like, like, how much of this destruction, like, affect my ability to follow the opening of the film. Yeah. So I was able to find multiple references to the use of ill postino as a film used in psychological experiments. No. And but the only experiment that I could find that was sort of close, uh, was one called orbital frontal cortex and dynamic filtering of emotional stimuli, um, which was performed at the University of

California, Berkeley. Oh, yeah. But I'm ready for them. I, I think that you may have been in a mirror or experiment, because it sounds very similar. Let's see, the set of auditory stimuli, consisted of 144 environmental sounds, train whistle, dog bark, uh, each sound was unique, and that's was presented only one-stallistic size of one back in her head. So tell you. To maintain a relatively constant level of arousal, the subject, the subjects watched a movie with the audio off. You'll

post, you know, with subtitles during stimulus presentation. We obtained EEG recordings, uh, with electrodes placed on three mid-line scalp locations. But they don't say shock, do they? I don't think they say shock. And it says that after the experiment, if either Angel Lanspur or Maro Streep called anybody, they'd set a certain set of words, they would assassinate. Well, or they would, they would become a film critic. It was like a horror film side effect of this. Yeah.

“Well, that's why they wiped the experiment for the records after that, because they were like,”

what have we done? Anyway, I just thought you would maybe be interested to know that you were part of a long tradition of, you'll post, you know. I think like the great relief is just that it wasn't participating in someone's like highly specific kink, you know? I was weird afterwards. They're like, this is an abacement, if you have to take pictures of my feet. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, to feel like there's actual academic backing here. I would like to get to the bottom of what

the reasoning for that particular movie, because that's pretty random, even in the early days. I'd like it. Maybe, like, maybe psyched departments across the, they were like, it's, there's a sexy element to it. And maybe the other language element is part of the sort of cognitive thing. I don't know, but that's fascinating. I wish I had done it. Thank you. Yeah. I appreciate your ability. This is your life. That's my backstory. Yeah.

Now, 30 years from now when some girls show up to ask you about your life experience. Right. I was like, well, I'll get back to this one moment. What are we doing next week? Oh, so we're going to get on an SIS flight from Sao Paulo all the way up to Oslo, where we're going to be talking about sentimental value, the last of our two. No, I think it's like with speakers. Yeah. Yeah. But we're going to have a special guest for that, which is a very exciting.

No one's dreaming. You can rent it at the $9.99 level. So, I think it's worth it. Maybe watch a couple of people, you know, split up the cost, but if you want to. But yeah, that will be

that will leave two more movies to talk about before we get to the Oscars, which we would argue

“are the two biggies. But yep. Now, so we'll see you here next week.”

Critical darlings is a blank check production and association with culture.

Hosted by Allison Wilmore and Richard Lawson, produced by Benjamin Frish, executive

“produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janellites. Video production and distribution by Anne”

Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth and Jennifer John.

(audience applauding)